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I have no idea what episode number this is. I had a good count going and then she got weird. So, welcome. I never know. So, it's true. Yeah. Very on brand. So, welcome to the bar, Zinkle. Hi. I'm Katie. I'm Garrett. And today we're joined by our favorite guest host, Jamie from the neurodivergent podcast. Hello. Hi. I'm so glad that you said yes when I asked you to do all the research on this topic. You know, research is my favorite. I am that nerd. I cannot help it. I love medical research. I love diving into stuff and going down those types of rabbit holes. Something's wrong with me. Look, I get it. But I was looking over your notes because you sent them to me last night and I was like, this is what people think when I send them legal stuff. Because... Well, I put it in red that was easy. You know, like it was, hey, non-medical explanation. Once I got to that part, I was like, wait a minute. I think these, that's when I was like, are these your notes? Because I thought you were just sending me like a source. And I was like, okay, it's sure I'll read this. No. So today, though, one of our followers on Instagram, and I believe, I think it is actually one of our Patreon subscribers as well, sent us a post from 23 and me where they were advertising that they can now do through their testing ADHD screening and genetic screening, which I think kind of opens us up to a lot of different questions. But the first question I had was, was that even possible from a spit test, which based on what I read on the 23 and me website, it's not. It's like a different type of gene sequencing that they can't do with just saliva. But that's why I needed your help. Well, I don't know saliva, as you could see in those notes, I did not look to see how they got the sources or the clusters of the genomes. But, you know, 23 and me, they were saying that they use over 15,000 or I'm sorry, 15,217 genetic markers. And, but from what I read and what I was understanding with where they are estimating the likelihood of being diagnosed with ADHD, is not that there is a specific gene or a specific sequence of genes that say, oh, this is the ADHD gene. But they found the variances through lots of research from as early as 2002, maybe I think is how far back I went whenever I was reading up on all of this. But it's the genetic markers or mutations that show that someone is impulsive or that someone has issues with executive dysfunction. And with those combinations, the people who have the clusters that are high, those are the people who are more likely to have ADHD. Okay. So what are those clusters? Oh, boy. Sorry. No, no, you're good. It's because it's so detailed. All right. So what I have understood, the scientists they've discovered that certain changes at now are DNA. They're called single nucleotide polymorphisms. We'll just say S&Ps. Okay. Those can increase the risk of developing certain diseases. They're not just ADHD, but also things like schizophrenia, rheumatoid arthritis. And they're figuring out that from all of these different DNA, all of the different S&Ps, that it increases the likelihood of this one thing. And we are able by doing that, that they are nine times likely. They're seeing that you are nine times likely to have ADHD due to this DNA sequence from a nuclear family member from like a mom or a dad. And whereas in schizophrenia, there's a higher chance of getting that if your mom or dad have it. And when I mentioned rheumatoid arthritis, there's a lower chance of having it. If you're getting it, even though there's a direct link, hereditary link. But I was reading that the scientists found that there are certain areas on chromosomes, which are like the little tiny structures that carry our DNA of two, seven, and ten, that have a higher chance of having certain genes that affect how our brain develops. And those are the genes that are really important when we're learning things like speech and learning and things like that. So I know two, seven, and ten are specific examples. Okay. That kind of tracks with so much about ADHD though that I mean, diagnosis is all over the place. Like there's no real standard. Like all three of us were diagnosed in completely different ways. And it's treated in different ways. And people have it in ways that, oh, I'm sorry, am I too poor? People have it in ways that represent the three of us. It represents so differently. So it's just, it just makes so much sense that they're like, oh, well, there's not this one marker. We just kind of have to look for hints in all of these other spots. But I guess, you know, if we're looking at something that's really more of like not mental health based, but you know, a little bit less tangible than something like a cancer gene. Right. I think that also goes to like what we've said of, you know, ADHD being kind of a spectrum disorder rather than a single thing, as well. Because obviously there can be this confluence of 15,000 markers. But how they come together, you know, the same ingredients used to make a loaf of bread, you can use to make a cake. It doesn't mean that they're not carbs. Or, or you can use vinegar to clean your floors or tables. You can also use it to make ice cream, right, Garrett? Yeah, or yeah, sanitize our sanitize our there's all kinds of things have multiple uses. You accidentally use vinegar to make ice cream or something instead of, you know, I thought it was vinegar. It was supposed to be. Oh, it's way worse. It was like what I had to do. Yeah, no, you really came through because I started doing research and it was all about like the ethics of gene testing for ADHD. And I was like, oh god, this is dope. Which is also fascinating though, because when I when I saw or when I read too that there were ethical concerns, me, I live in this world, this full of rainbows and butterflies. I don't live in a dark cynical place. And even though I live in the world of medicine, I was thinking, what kind of ethics would this bring about? I was confused. And then as I was looking at the speculations of stigma or exposure to other people that they want their health information to stay private, right? HIPAA. But even with all that, the people may not know and the vast away for others to find out. It was like you said, it becomes really dark, but that was very fascinating to me. Yeah, it was it's one of those things. And because I don't consider myself a particularly private person. And I think like for especially for medical stuff, like my mom's of nurse and I kind of just figure like whatever, like you're going to know it anyway, like who cares, you know? So it never it was never like nothing was ever stigmatized to me growing up where it was like, oh no, they have cancer or anything like to be ashamed of. It was just like, I went to the doctor and this is what happened. So yeah, when I was looking at that, I was like, oh, we'll shoot. Like that's probably potentially, I mean, I know that obviously there is a stigma against ADHD, particularly in adults. But and this idea that like we should be able to manage it without help, I guess. But the idea that it would potentially prevent you from getting a job or potentially affect dating like in very like gattica vibes, like I was like, oh, I guess that's real. I used to work in insurance and it was a conversation. Yeah, that had that came up a lot because especially like when I was in school and we were talking about it because that was, I mean, you figure as a while ago. So things like, you know, the genetic testing were becoming a more prevalent conversation and digitized medical records. And it was okay. So at what point, our health insurance and not health insurance are life insurance companies going to say, hey, we have this huge list of uninsurable people because and the other thing is, you know, when you get denied for health insurance, it or gosh, health insurance, life insurance, it goes into a database and that's information that's kept on file forever. So if you've been denied health, a life insurance, it comes up. It's not something that just a denied application, no big deal. It's a big deal like it gets kept forever. So there's definitely a discriminatory aspect when it comes to that for for life insurance for people, which is like, ADHD. I mean, there's some diagnoses that you're like, really? Well, but ADHD can reduce life expectancy by as much as 13 years. So that is especially significant because our lifespan, those of us with ADHD, are lower. So when you're paying life insurance, those companies aren't going to want to do that because they know that you don't have quote, you know, like as much longevity statistically as someone else that they're covering. And it's also interesting because with different presidential, like with different people in office, they see health health insurance period very differently. Prior to Obama being in, if you have a history of let's say heart disease, you could not get insurance, you could not get medical insurance. It's not even that you just pay a higher deductible, which happens now. You are able to get it period. And the pendulum swing. So there's a lot of changes happening in our country. Obviously, who knows if that's going to swing back the other way. So being able to see that we have ADHD, which means that we need medication. We struggle without it. Many of us do. And not only that, but there are so many other things that we are learning that the medical field is learning that people with ADHD do need that needs to be covered with insurance. So if it swings back the other way, are we going to struggle with getting coverage period? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's, it's a valid concern to have, particularly if things in certain places are heading towards, kill this cat, or heading towards a theocracy, then it could become, you know, you don't need cognitive behavioral therapy. You need to just, you know, pray about it. And, you know, use theology-based remedies, quote-unquote, to treat whatever it is that you're feeling or struggling with. And we've talked before on a couple of our other episodes about the like puritanical, just history of the country in general. And the idea that if you're not accomplishing something, if you're not doing the dishes, if you're not folding your laundry right away, it's because it's a personal failing and you're not disciplined enough. And the idea of being super disciplined and stoic is so like pilgrim Protestant, like, wasp. And not to mention, I got so much hate in my comment section what I made to repost about this, but as you're saying that it's discipline-based. And if you're not doing the dishes, if you're not doing all that, then there's a problem with you. It doesn't have to do with difficulties with executive functioning. But for women in general, and we know how people, especially those groups of people that you're talking about that are very traditional to be polite, that they see that this is where you are valued as a wife or as a woman period that you're able to keep a house clean, that you're able to keep the kids scheduled organized along with your husbands and yours, and he goes to work and make the money. And then you have to probably not only work, but you also have to keep everything perfect. That's exactly what we struggle with. So those expectations of our gender role too, goes down a deep wormhole of what it does to us with causing depression and anxiety, because internally, if that's what we were raised to believe, then we feel like we are not good enough, period. And it just exacerbates things. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I would say so. And I think it's weird, because I think you can speak for yourself too, Garrett. But I think that we tend to surround ourselves personally with people who are very like, okay, division of labor. Let's just tackle this together. We'll clean out the garage together. We'll put in a new fence together. We'll do this. These things are together things. And then you kind of divvy up your jobs otherwise. But even if within your household, that's how it is. You still go out into the world. And it's like, well, it's kind of hard to like make friends. If you're around a whole bunch of people that are like, oh, yeah, I did this. I'll actually never forget. I was doing a moot court competition in law school. And we had to travel down to Liberty University, which I had never heard of. That is the big of it. You've driven past it and it is gigantic. It is a huge campus. And we had to check in. It was like a weekend competition. I think we checked in on a Thursday evening. And we checked in like at they had this huge, they have a huge law school, but they had this huge moot courthouse. And we check in and there was like a table right in front of like the primary courtroom in this building. And they were having worship services in there. And I was like, that's weird for, you know, the separation of Georgia state. And one of the days during the competition, we're all sitting down and we're all breaking for lunch and all the different laws. We were the furthest, we were from the furthest north law school. Otherwise, everybody was from the south except for one team from I think Columbia law. And we're sitting around eating lunch. And this guy who was like 24 sits down next to other, some other guy and he's like, so how's the wedding planning coming? And I was like, not in a million years, would you hear that conversation happen in upstate New York? Like no fucking way. Would that conversation have been initiated by a guy asking you how's the wedding planning going at the age of 24? And he's already got a wedding ban ban. In law school. Yes. Like while you're still in school. Right. Yes. So like it was just like a wild culture shock moment for me because I mean, I grew up going to Catholic church and being I think involved enough in religion. But it was nothing like what you guys have down south. Oh yeah, well, welcome to my neck of the woods. Here I am with blue hair and like a gay pride shirt on as we do this. Hell yeah. Okay. Just here. Well, you can always come up to New York because you'll fit right in. Holy shit. I was just like, I have no friends. Like, are they all up north? Is that what it is? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. North of the Mason Dixon. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty much that compromise is when everybody was like, fuck it. We can't hear about your beaches that much. We have beaches. There's just lots of rocks. Lots of rocks and the water is cold and choppy. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. But good for your, that's good for your circulatory system to have, you know, those cold baths. So what's good for me is not going in it and spiking my anxiety that I'm going to drown a death. All that matters is if you can see the harbor seals. As long as you can see the harbor seals, there's no sharks nearby. That's the trick. I don't, I don't like that tip. She said, I don't need tricks. No, no, no. Another trick is staying on land where I am not part of the food chain. That's what. Although I am a little bit more slow moving than usual, so I might be. That's true. Yeah. You're, you're bait now. Yes. And get easily winded. So. But it is, it is wild like the as much it, it's ironic that there's such a national conversation, especially like every time there's a shooting, you know, the, the line that's always given is like, we need to do more for mental health. Not only are we not funding it, but the stigma that exists for people that have any kind of, like I was saying before, like a diagnosis that's not tangible, you know, I don't have a broken leg, I don't have a cancer diagnosis. Um, there is definitely this level of. It's almost dismissive. Like you're supposed to know about it and you're supposed to control it, but it shouldn't impact anything. It should be invisible to other people. Well, it's just having. Yeah. It's, it's your own discipline failings. Right. And I do wonder to like how much of it is, how often it is gender based. So like I have, like for example, high blood pressure, which is like more of a tangible diagnosis that is hereditary based. I mean, dietary changes didn't do anything lifestyle changes, losing way, all of these things had no impact on my blood pressure, but the conversation when I go to the doctor was always, you need to lose more weight. You need to be, and I'm like, I don't eat me. You know, I'm doing all of these things. I'm, I'm on medication that's controlling it, but there was always an element of there's personal responsibility to it, which when my spouse goes to the doctor and say, you know, if his cholesterol was high or something, you should just incorporate some more greens into your diet. It's not a personal failure on his part for having something, you know, having something in his blood work that was off. Whereas when I go, it was, are you really eating what you're saying you're eating or you really exercising? So I mean, you think about how much worse it is with a mental health diagnosis, where it's, you know, I mean, how many times do we do research? And it says, to improve this thing, diet and exercise. That's not that I fixed my anxiety. I saw something the other day that said it was not until 1997 that they even incorporated the menstrual cycle into ADHD. Like 1997 is when we started making a connection that like, oh, females can have it. There could be influences with this, not just guys, but even when you're talking about genetics and high blood pressure, I think about black Americans. And actually their chromosomes, not to go into too much detail for people who aren't, you know, great with medicine or biology, but they're shorter. So that means that their lifespan is shorter. And that comes from past trauma. And that makes you very susceptible to high blood pressure, high cholesterol, kidney struggles. And that's why in a lot of the other countries, you don't, they don't need dialysis. There's a very large percentage of the people in our country that requires dialysis because of kidney disease that they can't control that. It is maybe 80, 90% of the people are black Americans, but it comes from the trauma. And that is proven. But same thing very similar to what you're talking about, like we don't take into account the importance of the individual and what genetics, what role that it does play when it comes to treatment to that it's not just something socially to fix. It's not something inherently that we just need to do better or be better. That is really a, it is a health problem, just like a heart attack or a stroke or things like that. And a lot of your lifestyle choices do contribute to having a heart attack or a stroke. But yet I'm still going to give you blood thinners. If you keep putting food in your mouth that had feet before, I'm not going to judge you for it. I'm still going to treat you and care about you and hope that you get better. But I don't see that even as someone who works with a large population of people, I don't experience that same type of love and understanding to the mental health society. For sure. And I think, you know, it's also that like you were saying earlier, the expectations for women to like manage the household and everybody in the household and their own life and all this other thing, all these other things that can affect how we interpret our own mental health. Because it, I think it can take so much more for us to feel feel comfortable, I guess, voicing our overwhelm. Because there's this, the, it's not ankle high. The bar is like for what we're allowed to complain about is like on the ceiling. And we have to get to that point before we can feel justified in complaining when in reality, like we should have been complaining before we had to tread water this whole time and just pray that we can, you know, keep our head above water long enough to get a deep breath. And then on the other side of things, I think men often have a hard time getting the appropriate mental health treatment because there is overall a huge stigma of, I mean toxic masculinity issues, plus the idea that, you know, stiff upper lip and having those societal hurdles and those puritanical things around us in our society that can prevent any man from feeling comfortable and even asking their GP for a referral. And then going and let, let alone the ADHD thing of getting the referral and then having to make the phone call yourself, like forget it. But the worst. Right now I got to do legwork. But if you think about it, if you were to close your eyes and I'm going to, I'm going to tell you, or I'm going to describe someone to you, like I want you to tell me the first picture that comes to your head of the person I'm talking about. If we start with someone who goes to therapy regularly every week, what is the picture in your head of that person? A woman. What did the person look like? A woman? Yeah. Was there a color to the woman? White. Yeah. Okay. So already we just naturally, you both, you both came up with the same exact picture of someone and we know that therapy is helpful for ADHD, for mental health period. Right? But if you, this could go either way, but same thing. If you have someone who is diagnosed with let's say schizophrenia and they do not feel comfortable disclosing that information and they still go to work and they do their best, what person did you picture with that? Yeah. A man. Yeah. I picture it a white man. Yeah. And I mean, we can take it even further because we know that ADHD, you deal a lot with substance, misuse and abuse as well, right? So if I tell you to picture someone who is addicted to heroin or if I just say a drug user, someone who is homeless, they're out on the streets and they use drugs often. What is the picture of the person you just came up with? Well, the picture, white man. Yeah, same, but like dingy are looking. But also given, given the news this week, I'm also picturing Jordan Neely in New York City, who is murdered by somebody on the subway who didn't like that he was homeless and struggling. So we already have all of these inherent biases about what someone is supposed to look like. And again, you add the dingy to it because we do see that people who struggle with substance abuse or whatever that they are dingy looking, right? But not really. Not really. We have people that I work within the hospital and have worked with that they have diverted narcotics and stuff that they were a young white girl just like me and got fired and arrested. And I think that that is part of the problems that we have when it comes to mental health because we, and I'm using that very broad, right? A very broad stroke that these are the people that struggle the most. Therefore if we struggle with seeking out the appropriate help, we struggle with doing those things because we don't fit into the box that society expects you to because I mean, we don't think that is that important anyways like, okay, you're going to therapy, you're paying your own money, that's good, you're doing your own work applause. But that's about as much as our society will say that's acceptable and good for you because outside of that, I mean, if you put a man in that same seat, there's a feminine idea attached to therapy. And so men already will struggle with going to that because then they're going to be feminized, right? And a lot of men in this country don't want that at all. And that's going to push them away even further from getting the help that they need and deserve. I've got people in my life, men, who you know could be going through something really stressful, really hard. And people unknowingly are kind of piling on at work. And I'm like, well wait, why don't you just give them a little bit of context? Like I'm not saying you have to necessarily open up to everybody. But you know, if I'm dealing with something, sometimes I'll say to my boss like, hey, yes, I can take care of this. But just as a heads up, I've got X, Y, and Z going on. So I'm having a tough time with this this week or next week I should be a little bit more available or whatever it is, just like, kind of give people an opportunity to be empathetic. And I think that giving them this much versus giving them this much. So I may not lead with I have an ADHD diagnosis and life is hard. I might say like, hey, you know, I have these things going on right now and I'm just very overwhelmed. It's a tough time in New York, me, whatever it is. And sometimes just giving like a little bit so people have a little bit of context. People can surprise you and be more understanding than you expect. But I think it's important to be having those conversations with people. So I think there's also an element of if I'm communicating this to you, my expectation is that you will be more understanding. And you will maybe be more consider of what other people are dealing with as opposed to work at work. And you got to be here 40 hours a week and do your things and leave. I think that the empathy is like a very important factor with people. Absolutely. And I wonder what genetic testing that if, for example, when I told my manager, I was struggling to take a test. I did I had to take or else I was going to get fired. It has a tear sheet. I know, I know, I was supposed to have within the first year, over two years later, I took the test. But so I tell my boss is a tear sheet. I have ADHD and so this has really been a struggle with me and I've been avoiding it. And she said, well, you don't look like you have ADHD. I wonder if even with this genetic testing in these markers, if it becomes something tangible that you can slide it because we currently are covered under the Americans with Disability Act. But if you can slide it towards and say no, see actually these are the areas genetically that I struggle with this, I struggle with this. I mean, we can name personality traits almost with the struggle part of it. And that that would, because it's measurable, right? And if it's measurable, it's proof. If that would open up the door to have a little bit more, that if you provide it, a little bit more softness or cushion with the areas that we do struggle with. Yeah, I think that's a great point because I think even there's those questions of the ethics of genetic testing, but to the extent that it could make it more undeniable for people, because it's not like, oh, you know, you, you're just, you just want Adderall. You just want, you know, to take a stimulant like I would prefer not to because more often not I can forget to take it. Like I did not with your brain alarm. I spent a good amount of time at Garrett's desk on Thursday and I was like, I don't want to work today. And then I got home and saw I hadn't taken my meds in the morning. And there we go. But explain why I just could not be bothered to sit still. But it was, but it is, if you could point to something and say like, no, this isn't my medical record. Like, and just be done with it, you know, the same way you can get a standing desk or some sort of keyboard situation if you have carpal tunnel. You don't necessarily need to have surgery to correct the carpal tunnel, but you are entitled to having those accommodations to allow you to do your job effectively. And, you know, the types of things that we need for ADHD accommodations, it's not breaking the bank for anybody. You know, it's, it's just, I look, I need you to either give me a bulleted list of what you want me to do or just give me one thing at a time, whichever way you want to do this. But like, that's what works for me. And let's go from there. So it's not even, I'm not even asking them to spend money to accommodate what I need. I'm just asking for some consideration. You know, if I was in a wheelchair, you'd give me a handicap accessible door. Probably. Hopefully. Hopefully. We're both like, hmm. But I wonder too, because a lot of, a lot of women, the primary diagnosis that women get before they receive ADHD is anxiety or depression. And they find out that those medications don't do that much for the whole group of issues that they're having. And then later on, several years later, they find out, hey, I actually had ADHD. They take medication for ADHD and the world is a new place in a good way. Genetic testing, I would assume would also help with that. So women will not be misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, and have to live more years suffering that it would be able to point, hey, let's actually go down this route. You, you may have anxiety and depression along with it. We're going to treat the entire group of it so that life is better for a longer amount of time. I see that as a huge benefit too for women specifically. I love that you're optimistic about this because I'm always so wonderful that I'm like, this is terrible rainbow butterflies. This is my world. See all of my, there's just going to be so much discrimination and everything's going to be bad. So no, imputers are going to eat us. Yes, we were just having a conversation about AI this morning and I was like, it's terrible. I hate it. I don't want to know about it. Don't even tell me. Yeah, that's your approach to most things, honestly. Paranoid. A bit. Yeah, you are a bit. There's a lot of cat here in my life right now. So you're going to outlive both Katie and I. We're just going to like positively go into stuff that is going to get us killed and get us to be like, I told them not to. That's bad feeling. I did hit myself in the head with my car the other day. She's explaining to me, I was like, you did what? How? You know how like, sometimes you're getting into your, you're getting into your car and you might like hit the top of your head on like the door jam. You were done that. I put nothing. So no, I don't know what that's like. Well, I'm also, but I have done it. So I like, I've done that before and like usually maybe like once a year, but the other day, I was like, I had a tote bag and I was putting it in my car and I was like trying to put it on the passenger seat. And I guess I just like followed my arm into the car and hit the side of my face on my fucking door. And I have an SUV like I was climbing up into my car and like teabowned myself. And I hit it like so hard that I was like, what the fuck? I was so mad at myself. But then I was like, I just hit myself in the head like right where my jawbone like connects. I was like, who does this? Who it's after head? So, well, luckily you don't have a bruise there from it. So that's a plus. Seriously though, but that's probably how I'll end up dying before Garrett is. Wrapping your head with random objects. Yes, blood for trauma. They're going to investigate all of your friends and family to see who did it. Yeah, it was hard. It was Katie in the driveway with her own car. Yeah, yeah. We usually joke that like Katie's the kid that's like throwing herself down the hill and rolling all the way down. And I'm like very carefully taking steps so that I don't fall down the hill. That would be the one of the differences. I was being careful though. I did think about it before I did it. It's like you don't even care. So it is good to hear like a more positive take on the impacts of this. Because I definitely like personally have not done anything like 23 in me because I'm then like, okay, but who is holding my medical information and my genetic information? And you know, 20 years from now, what happens with that and who's going to own it then? And I mean, I think it's great when you hear about like old cold cases getting solved because somebody's like, niece or nephew did 23 in me and their creepy uncle got caught for murdering somebody 30 years ago. But I do just get a little concerned with who owns it, what they're going to do with it. Because I do worry about, you know, okay, so are we just putting together like a database of things I'm going to be denied for in the future because you have a sample of my genetic material because I thought it would be cool to know some things about myself on a genetic level. Which I can see the concern for that now because a lot has happened in health care within the last year that I would have never thought would be the case because I was seeing progress as a nurse and the things that when it came to health care that it was going for the better even if the general population of people, whatever. But because back in my days where I would have been completely positive on that, I would say, okay, well, they also tested your unborn baby for genetic mutations, right? Yeah. For neural tube defects for all of that and nothing bad comes there like, okay, so now this trial we're going to make sure that they don't get a certain kind of life because of it. So I can make that correlation prior to this past year. But so now, you know, I completely agree with you because they're doing a lot of things to us out of our control without concern to the betterment of people in general. So yeah, I think so I've done 23 in me. I did it like five, years ago, now five and a half years ago. My mom had gotten kits for all of us and it's cool, but I think had I known the privacy concerns like if I were to do it now, I probably wouldn't. I would probably just do like an ancestry, follow who I know back and go from there because realistically, there's not very many questions about my family history. We're pretty solid on records. Going back at least, you know, maybe 140 years or so. So we have enough like beyond that generationally speaking, that's not affecting my gene pool really. So it's not, it's it's one of those things that like had I known then what I know now, I probably would have skipped it. It's still cool to see like the percentages, but even then, you know, like even 23 in me, it's just based on how many people they have testing from. So like initially, I think it said I was 74% like from Ireland in the British Isles. And then now it's up to like 92%, which again, doesn't like it was, it wasn't not a surprise. Neither of those numbers were shocked to anybody. My mom's maiden name is Ohern and my last name is O'Brien. Like we weren't surprised to find out that we were Irish. So, but you know, and as far as we know, I mean, at this point, nobody's found like a long lost relative or something else like that, which would have been so cool. I guess I'm such a gossip freak. But like other than that, it's sort of like somewhat moot. And I think even the from my personal results from 23 in me, it said I'm I'm likely to have like light or red hair and I don't have very dark brown hair naturally. My brother has strawberry blonde hair. But so it has like a couple of things where I'm like, I don't really know where you're getting that from. And I'm wondering even for what 23 in me is promising with their 15,000 markers, if it's the kind of thing where the efficacy of it perhaps over time will become more accurate. But right now it's a capitalism selling point thing. They can't really do much with it because right now also they're apparently like that test or the results of that test are only available through their like premium subscription plan. So of course. So you'd have to pay like I think it's I think it's a monthly fee to have access to these more detailed reports and these other including the ADHD report. But in so it's the kind of thing where it's like you were saying Garrett, who's storing this for how long, how long are they keeping this data? And are they really accessing it a new for these new tests? Or are they just using old data? Which we know from like date line, they do have to retest, you know, bodily fluid samples even with new technology because they can't use the results from older tests. So it just makes me wonder. I don't I don't think that the mail or selling genetic testing kits are going to be I mean they do have the the thing that's like don't rely on this for a diagnostic thing. Well because there's not one gene that says you have ADHD is just hey these things are contributors that people with ADHD stroke with therefore you're more likely to have it. So how long do you think it would take for those types of things to say hey I have all these different markers to be able to take that to your doctor in lieu of an assessment or in order to get an assessment? I have no idea how long I think it would take but I know that I read that some of the scientists they actually won awards for proving the likelihood of ADHD. So I don't see it being that far in the future of being able to use an actual sample somehow to get a diagnosis or to even maybe speed up an evaluation or assessment for ADHD because a lot of people in the United States just to be assessed is way down the line. But if it's it's kind of like if you go to your your primary care provider and you say I want a referral to a pulmonologist a lung doctor because I'm having some struggle breathing you want to go to that specialty and they can give you a referral and it's going to get you in a little bit faster than if you just call around a whole bunch of offices to talk to different pulmonologists. So I mean maybe that's the way they can do it but I see it being sooner than later especially in a capitalist society that we know that ADHD a lot of many more people are being educated about it and therefore they're wanting to be evaluated to see if that's something that they may have that could make their life easier because they recognize the similarities and there's just not a lot of open spots for them to be seen by provider. So I could see that helping curb all of that and for people the medical community make money from it. Yeah that would be great honestly I know that in not that they make money from it I mean but like to speed up the diagnostic of it. But I know that in the UK the NHS is like the weightless to get an assessment or to meet with a psychologist even potentially get cleared to have a assessment later is like two or three years. Oh Lee Mollie. It is so long. Like people on Reddit on like the different subreddits for ADHD are talking about it constantly and they're like well I you know I'm waiting for two years and then you kind of like some people have even said like okay well if I'm gonna like follow these ADHD hacks or whatever these different things I can do to make myself yeah more effective and and to sort of quell what I'm suffering with with this. Then by the time I get the assessment done is it changing the results because it's like well I don't have trouble showing up on time for an appointment because when I put it in my phone calendar I make sure to set four different alarms on the days leading up to it so now I don't forget and I have all these different like stopgap provisions so the immediate answer to do you ever miss an appointment is no but because for the past two and a half three years you've been doing all these other things so that you don't have to deal with that consequence of ADHD. May I add something to those people that think that? Let's put it in a more a way that is a bit easier to understand and to make a connection with what you're saying because the people who think that it is very realistic and understandable why because you want to be honest right you don't want to even feel like you're just trying to get medicated but if you don't have a leg if you had like your leg amputated and they say hey do you have struggle getting around? Well I use crutches or I use a wheelchair so no I don't I don't really have trouble getting around you still don't have a leg so yeah it's still an issue it's just that you found a way to make it more manageable because you don't want to be stuck on your couch and like scooting your butt everywhere you go that would be trouble getting around that way but so no if you had it prior to these provisions people should not have to put 15 alarms on their phone for one appointment that is not normal people do not do that they don't have ADHD it's just a lot of life personally I mean I do it too I mean we can go through the long list of my phone for just to meet with you this morning I was sitting at my desk a couple weeks ago and my little reminder came up for our team meeting that's like a webinar meeting and it's like in 15 minutes and I was like cool snooze to time of thing and then I start scroll in my phone and I didn't have my headphones in because I call and I look up and I had an email from my boss the meeting was at 9 a.m. and it was 906 and he sent the email at 903 and he was like will you be joining us today? Oh my god fuck oh the number of times that has happened to me too I'll have stroke meetings and I'm at home doing things and I'll pop up it's like in 30 minutes I'm like cool cool cool cool and then an hour after the thing was over I was like son of a bitch I forgot like how did I lose it in just 30 minutes I'm sitting at home doing nothing yeah no I totally I was like oh see Daisy not mean not that they covered anything that I didn't already know but still the whole meeting was 10 minutes to begin with so I showed up six minutes late that's bad yeah it wasn't good so see clearly clearly to those people your hacks does not change your ADHD it does not reformat it no I had no problem getting distracted by anything else yeah well that's like I don't even know I have so many things that I have been doing for so long that are so ingrained and how I do things it would be hard for me to tease out like really until we started doing this podcast and started talking about things I was like oh I guess this thing that I do I do because I'm making it ADHD proof for myself so that I can't forget about it or overlook it or ignore it or avoid it I or you have like my whole life eating hands or I have my whole life like ADHD proofed so it's impossible for me to do the things that my brain wants to immediately do with them so it is you know I one of the things that did and Jamie I don't know if this came up in your research but in the very small amount of labeling that I did there was mention of the testing the genetic testing being especially helpful for finding the most appropriate treatment based on the markers as opposed to just like who you have it or do you not or you likely to have it or not but more what will work best for you yeah um whether a stimulants uh things like that or no medication right that's more but it found through what a great question Garrett that was really I threw it in there like I think towards the end of things that I was looking at I was like oh yeah well that's that's cool to know but they they are also researching that too and they have found primarily that the way that the stimulants work and they verified it that it doesn't take the stimulants causes your brain not to take up as much dopamine at a time because we are dopamine seeking individuals so there it leaves it more in that that like cup to pour into our brain to keep things going for more of like a longevity and stuff and they have found that mostly that stimulants work very well and is the best thing so far to work but they're going to continue researching on it and they recommend that whatever your doctor recommends obviously that that's what you stick with at this time but they have found that stimulants have worked best with these genetic mutations of people with ADHD yeah and I like thinking of it as a genetic mutation too because I think even going into this how many times we've been like oh this is a brain science thing this is not even though like I'm logically yes this is a diagnosis that I have that I was told by a medical professional that I had that I've been treated for in the past that like I have to make my life foolproof for but still will blame myself you know you didn't do this you've been avoiding this because that's how you are you avoid things or you're lazy or you're too lazy to get x, y and z done so I think like really breaking those stigmas down internally is also I mean on you know on a macro level is important for people but also like on an internal levels that you're not beating yourself up about stuff all but all the time you know every way lifted off of me yeah to get diagnosed but they also found to go more into it being a genetic mutation but these things can also happen in utero too that changes your genetics so you're already put together your DNA is you know it's already sequenced and but when we get down into the microbiology of it all if your mother while you were in utero smoked or my god or did peptobizmal that was number one on the list for get your hands out of your toe just kidding just kidding but like but I mean doing drugs alcohol other talks and environmental toxins is there other's been links with Tylenol to autism spectrum disorder too yeah Tylenol not essential oils so you got that going for you oh my god sorry so any MLMs out there be sure to get in touch with Katie and hear it oh we do get a message from somebody trying to tell us how to promote our young living business after our episode on that posted yep you missed the point tell me you didn't listen to the episode without telling me you didn't listen to the episode right yeah we did have a listener actually send us who's listening to that episode I guess it's trained in natural childbirth she sent me a YouTube video of how quote how the Danes do it which was high loose but was this woman giving birth in like a plexiglass tub it was like a water burst so you could like see which was cool but it was a breach birth yeah no thank you can I maybe I don't ask the opposite of that and I was like and just like came out and I was like that woman's pelvis is a freeway what the fuck oh my god something tells me this kid's gonna need a shoehorn take it out yeah I'm freaking a wild I was like holy cow that was nuts but I did confirm that they don't leave the baby underwater for an hour so yeah the Danes got that's bad that's good that's what Gary Young did with one of his children and then the baby did not survive that's almost like air is important at least once that placenta detaches craziness not anyway at least he has his essential oils yeah essential oils on five you know I can like drink all the lavender oil I want but I better not take Tylenol or Pepto Bismol or hands and I do wonder that too because my spouse and I both have ADHD I think the likelihood of having a child 80 percent 80 percent from one parent oh well there you go so 100 I mean you don't even need blood work just like crush up the stimulus put it in the baby's bottle from the beginning perfect you were having again kidding that Nicole translucentcy tests where they're you know they're looking for you know signs of like heart defects or down syndrome and the ultrasound tech is like all right to like the back of their like measuring the skin on the back of the neck like everything looks fine I was like oh it's too bad you can't test that for anxiety too haha making myself laugh and she was like aha I was like okay it's just because we both have really bad anxiety yeah we left that day they're like let me tell you what this patient just said yeah we are ladies in our old yeah no that's wild though and it makes I mean it it makes sense that you know stressor like you were saying for black Americans who have these shorter chromosomes because of basically generational trauma so it makes sense that that would affect how the the baby can develop even in utero and then you know cut to like our medical bias episodes and our racial medical bias episodes for how that can affect whether or not a black child is diagnosed with ADHD rather than a conduct disorder and all those types of things that just end up wearing you down without and like you were saying Garrett like it's not a tangible thing it's hard to put your finger on exactly I can't point to this and say this is my broken arm from being stalked by police every time I go to them all it you know you can't I mean well actually you probably can't show that but um but that is not stress over such a long period of time I mean how could that not impact your DNA mm-hmm right yeah and for you know and if you're already again you're starting at a point where your genes have had hundreds of years of trauma in this country then you're like with ADHD you're starting at a lower gear trying to pedal uphill and working your ass off to get there and then people are like why aren't you just up here like aren't you lazy like just try harder mm-hmm mm-hmm have you gotten up there was a there was this thing that I saw one time that it it I feel like it's there's a lot of similarities obviously with ADHD but I saw it and it was based on race and again I feel like this is neurotypical versus neurodivergent would be another good way to do it but they had all of these children line up on a starting line and this man said hey whoever gets to be first you went a hundred bucks it's right here you get here it belongs to you all right so before we start if both of your parents are still married take one step forward if you if both of your parents graduated college take a step forward if you know whatever and so they go through all this and you could see this huge difference of where some people got started in this race to be successful in getting the $100 bill it wasn't just athletic ability that it was based on and yeah and so what what is the likelihood for the person who had all of these steps ahead from the starting line to be able to be successful and to get to the finish line first and yeah so I mean I find that very similar to ADHD it was done based on race and things like that oh absolutely and I think that also goes for in the in the ADHD realm other learning disabilities like dyslexia and dyscalcula and apraxia and all these different things that can go undiagnosed for so long especially if you're like borderline on anything then you just expect them exactly if you're really I know at least in the 90s like you just wouldn't get diagnosed if you were borderline you weren't eligible for an IP at that point because what are we gonna do for you you're not really dyslexic you're not really you know I mean I don't even know that they were really diagnosing people with dyscalcula back then I sure as hell should have been diagnosed with it but I also think I would have done really well with common core math personally but yeah so it's just one of those things where all of those different things coming together when you have so many different learning disabilities or learning differences then to be expected it's that I think it's an Einstein quote if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it'll live its whole life believing it's stupid and it's the same thing and you know when I'm being held to the metric of somebody who doesn't have to set several alarms and then still miss the the team meeting then yeah I look like a space catat or lazy or like I'm not taking my job seriously when I am and I was fully prepared and I was ready to show up right there's just this one thing that I have a hard time with right yeah I have I have really bad time blindness really bad so was there anything else you found in your research that we didn't get to geek out on um give me half a second I am interested to see like how different it'll be for um you know our kid versus how it was especially as a girl how it was for me you know being the ultimate daydreamer as a child and never getting diagnosed um not that I want to use her as a as a test but I'm almost interested to see if it's something that comes up organically versus me keeping an eye out for it um you know if it's something that teachers or daycare workers or something bring up as like a hey have you considered this right well especially since your household is ADHD designed at this point um like me I mean my mom and my brother had it so you know I just existed and was perfectly happy yeah I think that there's going to be a lot of positive things I'm just speculating but because the awareness is truly getting out there especially for I keep talking about like women with ADHD but this is the this is a group of people that I realize and recognize that are under diagnosed and suffer for longer periods of time okay I'm not in the comments on your post for this one so you will get a rich man to get some my post that is an important distinction we just get bots well you can have some of mine I'll just send them your way be like please tell the bar is ankle high your thoughts instead of me thank you very much oh me oh Katie will that's like one of her favorite pastimes I do love it I know I send her comments all the time like look at this shit Katie oh yeah she'll text me she'll be like uh have you seen the drama that is unfolding I'm one of James right now it's always drama and I'm not a drama girl this was so crazy about it I can't stand drama it could actually keep a mouth shut I'm like listen here the one you posted recently where you were like this is humor and blah blah blah and then everybody in the comments was like this is funny this is why they're stigma out there I was like really because nobody else leaves their keys in their front door also definitely go to the bar's ankle high because they joke about all the time oh yeah no the comments on that post just oh they just cracked me up because especially especially the one because that was the one where I had commented like I don't know if you saw it Gary it was like the third slide was something like when you like forget what you're saying in the middle of a sentence and I was like oh just ask me how many times I've said to get it what was I just saying it's that Michael Scott thing where he's like I call it improvisation like we're start of us ends and you don't know where it's gonna end up yeah it's a hundred percent it happens all the time when we're recording too right you like and then walk us back you're like we did this and then this and then this and then this and then this but like I have no idea what we talked about 30 seconds prior and can't remember anything and then the comments on that post people were just like up in arms and they were like oh so now because I don't do these things I don't have ADHD and I was like in what fucking world was this high diagnostic and it literally said this is not medical advice this does not mean you do or do not have it and then people like well you need to put it on the first slide that is because some people don't read the to whatever the summary of this post well that's not my problem go right there get some sunshine and yeah I'll talk you like go down go outside go for a walk yeah and they weren't just I mean these people were genuinely very frustrated they weren't just like trolling to troll if you look at their accounts like they were they were they were big mad yeah yeah yeah it's so crazy and then I also think I I cannot make a post that makes 112 thousand people happy I'm sorry isn't it's not going to happen every one of them's not made for you but also I'm allowed to be funny in what humor I find no one else in this world may find it humorous and if I do and I'm having a bad day and I want to put something I find funny then I get to do that it belongs to me and I do it for free for you so unless you want to start putting money where your mouth is that I'm going to keep doing it oh totally unless you if you have if you have a purple crown after your name I will take your advice or at least I'll think about whatever you have to offer what you prefer to see because you put money in my pocket so yeah that's fair we had a review on Apple podcast I can't it makes me I get mad literally every time I think about it every time oh which is a star because I so I saw it and I didn't tell Garrett about it because I knew she'd get mad I took like once a month I'll be like all right do we have any new you know Apple reviews and the best thing I looked at I was like Garrett spouse also saw it and also did not tell her about it because he knew it would make her and he had already like googled the username to see if he could it was just like we're clearly starting out and it's new you know we're under a year and it's the type of person that puts a bad review on a small business is the worst kind of person it's but like the review itself was like undeserved I was looking for a good ADHD podcast with actual practical tips but they were just laughing too much and about what and I was like well mostly our I mean we're definitely classified as like a comedy and mental health podcast we do both laughing offense people I've I until recently I didn't realize how angry people are when you laugh don't share the joy guys just keep it bottled up right right not yeah it's very much like misery loves company and I wonder if that's genetically linked like can we look at chromosomes to see you are a miserable human being on this exact what is the sound of your DNA because there's a lot of people who have it yeah oh for sure yeah and and that's the thing where I was just like it just like cracked me up and I was like okay we'll we'll get more five star reviews eventually people will write out more reviews for us eventually just so unnecessary yeah well and especially with like our first few episodes they were very rough compared to that's every podcast right yeah exactly okay well I mean I guess started the most recent ones and work your way back so you or just like unfollow if you don't want to listen you don't have to leave somebody a bad review yeah yeah didn't it didn't bother me that much but it really set off Gary it was like totally the I was like a principal based thing I was like there's such a shitty thing to do yeah still mad about the shitty gene yeah like you don't have to write anything like I think if they had just left the two star review which is the other thing like it wasn't a one star review it was a two star review so I was like one for each of you it was one for you yes good job having two hosts yeah my god I'm so so every time somebody mentions a Google review I'm like do you remember but we turned that into a game for patreon so it was fine we did we did read some one star reviews so we did there's a whole podcast about one star reviews I love that podcast you too that's a great yeah it's called beach to sandy water to wet and it is hysterical but yeah no I basically we did that basically for a patreon episode we did one star reviews of pet items from Chewy and there were some hot takes some weird people out there they're really are yeah oh boy what oh no I'm writing because you gave me an idea and my my desk is a dry race board so I needed I needed my pinter right down you're talking to two people that have dry race boards on their desk the entire desk is one I love it so much that's awesome yeah the fridge one is cool I got one for PK too because he just got a new like actual office job so yeah it's so like the the organ is so good love it like just as soon as I have a quick thought I kept forgetting to take something out of my car and I was going into the office and forgetting it every day so I finally like left myself a note and then I was like oh I can go out on like yeah it was just it was just so it's so freeing having that and not having to like have those things knock around or write down into piece of paper and then I have just like more clutter it's perfect yes well if I write it down on a piece of paper I generally won't look at it ever again but I can sometimes remember it sometimes but I can sometimes remember then you no longer have ADHD Katie we are tired you're don't don't ever go back to the psychiatrist I bet your genetic test would be like just where it is sticky note JK JK is what is it JK have you tried diet and exercise just get more some have a little sunlight it is like literally every single thing we research PCO is like PMDD ADHD anxiety depression seasonal effect of disorder they're like diet and exercise which I mean I agree with but but also let me add I have had ADHD my whole life even though I was only diagnosed two years ago I had insane struggle which we talked about on your last episode that I was guessed on I was an ultra marathon runner so diet exercise did not fix this right yeah right um you know I'd run 42 miles in a race I went 10 months without missing a day of running I would go out at 2 a.m. like okay I'm just gonna go running for three hours didn't didn't fix it and my diet was pretty good too so no also good job not getting murdered going for a run at 2 a.m. Jesus you listened to true cry podcast yeah but but I had something that looked like brass knuckles obviously it wasn't because it's illegal but it went on your hand okay I wouldn't title no one only yeah it's only a public podcast episode I'd be like oh good that's a good idea that's saying brass knuckles no it's even better but it had like this little switch that you could flip in a trigger and it was a taser so even if a car was start slowing down while I was out running I would turn it on and it would be like you know it's like make the sparks and it would just keep on going so I was very safe um I would scare them before they even had a thought to knock me over the head and throw me over there it's gonna hit you up for the link to that and bring it to work I got you I think that's great I saw runners mace initially but uh yeah when I found that taser I'm like this is for me they made it just for me yeah I would run like with a metal water bottle and I'm like I mean if I need to I can take it so heavy though I know I know I know I'm like something in my hands yeah I'm not ideal yeah I'm uh this rested and I don't I don't run with like close fist like my hands are always very awkwardly open try and have your own but yeah I had um I used to do a bunch of running um and I had I think they're called knuckle lights but they just like went around my hand and were like little headlights but it was great because I didn't have to have like a closed fist or and they were really light and they stayed there because this wrap was like silicone so it didn't like slip all over the place you see those people that have like the vest that light up yeah they're so cool I like the ones that have the whole body light up and then they do the dancing those are great too we should get together and do that for one of your patreon episodes like just have video of light up dances and yeah that would be great dancing is all so good for ADHD just that would be one of them and then we would be cured so yeah again the genetic match is gonna just change the game we can we can really screw up uh 23 and me let's just provide samples over time there you go there you go perfect nailed it good job screw up their statistics yeah fuck them just go self-crime god I mean that's a chaotic measure I can totally get behind so yeah well thank you so much for hanging out with us today Jamie yeah I was looking forward to this all month so thanks for happy back on us too and it worked out because we would have had to cancel if we were supposed to do it last weekend it's been it's been a time yeah no your schedule actually helped us out yeah great I'm glad yeah no it's always a dream having you here and I'm sure we might end up having you back on when Garrett is on my turn to be leave anytime I'll be happy to always send you my schedule because I have no life so me neither soon it'll just be fixing up a house that I rent I keep telling her I can't wait for you guys to have those like mundane people living together arguments something will come up and I'm like oh I can't wait I can't wait for somebody else to have these stupid annoying we call them Tiffany's like it's not really a fight it's like more of a tiff so our like household nickname for it is Tiffany's can't wait for you to have those stupid little Tiffany's yeah we're gonna have one of our painting because we picked out our paint colors last weekend and um for the living room and dining room and bathroom and we were talking about it we picked out all the colors and we like get home afterwards and Patrick was like by the way I hate painting and I like looked at him like what the fuck does that information mean to me because uh who gives a shit for like in what world was this not a Wii project like otherwise you don't get a choice in any of the colors we picked out but um so we like I looked at him and I was like so and he was like well I just don't really want to do it and I was like so so excited so that might be I'm gonna get I'm gonna start getting voice notes from Katie like and then I can't wait we'll have a group chat with the three of us I'm so excited please can't wait I think I still have yourself so I'm in fact I'm sure I do so I'll just add I'll just add Garrett to it um well anyway thanks for doing all the research and deciphering it all yes anytime I had a great time thank y'all again yeah of course yeah that was a good topic too I it was a great topic yeah I was very impressed with it yeah so thanks for the recommendation Sarah and um in the meantime I guess you know go cure ADHD with spitting in a cup or something stick you know and sunshine and dance exercise right if our listeners want to find you Jamie where can they find you in North Carolina no I'm just kidding um I am on any of your podcast listening platforms the neurodivergent nurse podcast I am most active on Instagram at the neurodivergent nurse and I have to talk that I don't do a whole lot with but occasionally some post I have a private ADHD chat thing on Facebook for people that you know other people can't see that you joined that group they're great people there um if you want to be added just reach out to me and I'll send you a link I also do a patreon and Instagram paid subscribers on the patreon mainly I just do ADHD type of the days every single morning this delivered to your email if you sign up for that and then two extra bonus podcast episodes a month and just random stuff throughout month too but those are the places where you can find me the most awesome awesome well uh yeah thanks again of course and um yeah in the meantime sorry Garrett I'm just seeing your text digger say can you please tell Jamie to shut up now are we doing Zencaster I don't know I literally send that to her like 840 I was like starting to get my stuff together I'm like I want her I was like you know let me just quick text her and I didn't and then I check my email and I was like oh yeah Zencaster so I was so remember to be kind to yourself and um it's okay to not uh check text messages immediately and it's okay to laugh in case you were wondering yes any of the listeners you are allowed to laugh yeah yeah because the bar is ankle high bye bye bye thanks for tuning in we'll be here next Thursday with another episode to tell your earholes in the meantime the best way to support us is to follow us on Instagram at the bar's ankle high and to subscribe and leave us a five star review on your preferred podcast streaming platform it seems really simple but it really is the best way to help us out especially whenever you can actually write out a review great news we have a new merch store that ships internationally allows you to customize your merch on an endless array of products you can head over to bit.ly slash ankle high merch to check it all out if you want even more ankle high 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