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Hey, pride members. You can listen to Small Town Murder Early and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Hey everybody just gonna take a quick second from the show to tell you about one of my favorite things in the world audible audible.com a U Di B L E dot com or the app. It's so easy. The app is my most used thing that I have. I'm always on audible I love it so much and you will to find everything that you want there they have all your audio entertainment in one app you'll always find what you're looking for there They have incredible audio books across every I mean every genre you can want all there We love it so much right now what I'm reading unaudible is we own this city Which is a book it's if you like the wire you like stuff like that you love this It's about a group of it's a nonfiction about a group of corrupt Baltimore cops that go around and do terrible things And it's all it's very well-darked. They own this city. It's off. It's just awful But the book is fantastic so you can download that get that listen anytime anywhere new members can try free for 30 days We love audible try audible free for 30 days visit audible dot com slash small town murder or tech small town murder to 500 500 that's audible dot com slash small town murder or tech small town murder to 500 500 Now back to the show This week in Mount Horib, Wisconsin a bloody basement scene turns into a real mystery when detectives can't figure out if the killer was a drugged up stranger or a mild mannered cheese maker Welcome to small town murder Hello everybody and welcome back to small town murder Yay Ah, yeah indeed Jimmy. Yeah indeed my name is James Petrogallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Whistman Thank you folks so much for joining us today and another insane edition of small town murder once again always always crazy and always crazy No different today especially in Wisconsin's one of our fun states as well Um, it's it's a crazy one. We'll get to it But before we get to that very quickly just want to say thanks for everything you do Shut up and give me murder dot com is where you get tickets for live shows We are not going to do the larger venue in Salt Lake City No, we found out the tickets didn't like you wouldn't end up sitting in the same spots you had some people It's some people are gonna get screwed and we said never mind. So that show sold out no more tickets for that So everything is sold out till august the 12th Well, we're in Chicago baby get your tickets come strong Chicago Make it our biggest show ever. We're very excited August 12th Chicago and then Uh, tickets left for Dallas and uh, what Philly and DC and Charlotte. Yeah, those are the tickets left in Atlanta Those are the ones that are left everything else is sold out So get in there now get your tickets shut up and give me murder dot com patreon dot com slash crime and sports is where you get the good stuff All the bonus material Anybody five dollars or above you're going to get access to the whole back catalog of bonus episodes It's deep and it's thick so you that's a lot of fun couple hundred of those and every other week You were gonna get access to two two new episodes. Yeah, this week for crime and sports, which you'll have access to We're gonna talk about something that has nothing to do with sports whatsoever So we've done some sports ones. We're gonna talk about something just fun and funny stairway to start them Which is a public access show in New York from the late 70s to the early 90s where people would come on and sing and it was like an amateur talent show And it's hilarious and I've never seen Jimmy left so hard in my life Host and his wife are marvelous. Oh, it's the whole thing. We're gonna play clips of bad singing and it's gonna be amazing Can't wait for that great for the wrong reasons. Oh, it's beautiful and then for small town murder It's that time again. Oh, is it her dating game is back. That's right the most popular thing we do on patreon the prisoner dating game Where I choose for young men and for young ladies for Jimmy to choose from all of the only thing they have in common is they are currently Incarcerated around the country and we're gonna give Jimmy just the pitch that they put on their dating profile He's gonna choose one of each just from that and based on that and then we'll find out not only what they look like But who they are and what they've done most most importantly, so that'll be a lot of fun Let's see if Jimmy can avoid the pedophile. It's like a shell game So to that that's patreon.com slashcribe and sports look out very soon for next couple weeks on Monday mornings Your stupid opinions will be coming out our new show where we make fun of people's reviews on the internet There's so many people review everything and we'll find the weirdest wildest things we could find and talk about it Your stupid opinions coming Monday mornings Do a podcast place near you. I guess it's the best way to put that quickly disclaimer time It's a comedy show work comedians people are gonna die That's gonna happen and jokes will be made But this is the thing here. First of all, we don't do small town murder to make fun of small towns too That's the other thing we do it because people feel safe in small towns And you feel like wow horrible murder shouldn't happen there. This is kind of like what's going on in your neighbors You know in your neighbor's house. It's it's fun to it's a weird voyeuristic type thing so that's why that's there We go out of our way not to make fun of the victims or the victims families Why James because we're assholes Yeah, but but we're not scumbags. That's how that works So if that sounds good to you you're gonna hear a wild story If you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together Maybe we're not for you. Maybe it's a first date. It's just not working out You're a vegan. I ordered a steak. It's not gonna happen. That's how it is So we don't know either way though for the rest of you out there Want to hear just an insane story and have a crazy time and hear some wild jokes I think it's time to sit back And clear the lungs everyone. Let's do this and let's all shout Shut up Big give me Murder Let's do this Jimmy. Okay, let's go out of trip. Shall we? Let's go in all the way to Wisconsin today. Oh, baby. I love when we go to Wisconsin. It's a It's a favorite shirt. I've ever seen there is smell our dairy air That's that's a lot of people. Yeah, that's a that's a common shirt It's a lot of different day. Did you did you? Yes, I you know what it was It was I was rewatching the wire and it's when her get suspended and chema comes and knocks on his door And says and he's like listen, I can't come. I'm suspended. She's like this is police work And he's got a Wisconsin smell our dairy air shirt on Very funny. Absolutely as that on So This is in southwestern Wisconsin It's about a half hour outside Madison So it's right there. No air put outside Madison an hour and a half to Milwaukee About an hour 15 to I'm not even going to say it our last Wisconsin episode because I know I didn't say it correctly I know idea on you dare day episode 344 don't look in the stove and The town's name which one shall never be uttered again. Sorry This is in Dane County Yeah area code 608 Uh-huh, and there's a motto here and it's it's here. It is the troll capital of the world What does troll mean and what does we don't mean the modern version of a troll It's not just a bunch of assholes sitting there trying to piss people off on Twitter It's actually trolls, you know like with the hair and little troll troll things troll. Yeah troll people Oh, yeah, what troll dolls right trolls. Yeah, trolls. I guess that they make them there No, not troll dolls, but like the troll dolls come from like a legend of trolls You know what I mean like that's a legend thing if you whatever. I don't know much about mythology or Norwegian troll fucking imaginary bullshit. I have no idea. Nobs and trolls. There's a lot of that stuff And uh, yeah, that's where this comes from and we'll get into that because they embrace their troll heritage here big time I huge fascinated. It's fascinating Uh, this was originally called called the corners. That was the name of this town Which sounds kind of cool actually going over to the corners Then they changed it to horub's corner, which sounds way less cool Yeah, that sounds like a pimptook that corner now it's his corner Um Jesus Marlow took that corner man since his corner now. It's got ho in it. It's got ho or in it horror Never mind. Oh, it's got ho and ho or both um before then a I eventually they called it Mount horub and I had a large norwegian population both from nor from norwegia as we know as we know are there from norwegia Norwegia obviously clearly No, either they were from norway or they're nor nor norway descendant people you know nor dick Nor dick so well I think but that isn't that just kind of a More sweeping term doesn't that mean not from norweg isn't that from I think no or because you hear like Nordic countries and that's like all that Fucking tall white people shit up there tall blonde, you know They norm six foot two was the average person walking around with blonde and all that shit I feel like that's how that's Nordic so I have no idea though like I said I know as much about that as trolls so I'm really yeah and then you've got Nordic track Which yeah, it's only for tall people It's for tall blonde people They'll know if your hair is not blonde So um the uh they had little norway Wisconsin which was near blue mounds they actually called it little norway in 1856 Austin all all all all Austin. I'm sorry. Austin allson Hagen and his family Who emigrated from norway? Established a 40 acre farmstead And then feels like a sentence it really does that's a lot Um, it's a lot here. So the norwegian word nisadel which is they there's all sort this nisadel is a farmstead that this Hagen guy Ha an 1856 and it turned into part of the town Nisadel and norwegian translates to valley of the elves Oh, so yeah, that's how the whole elves controls Yeah, so during the 1980s as a part of an effort to continue to celebrate their norwegian heritage Um as well as they built a highway past here. They wanted people to pull off the highway and And uh, you know have something to talk about hey come come over here We have and they had a blank space so they said we are the troll capital of the world come on in everybody Um, there's no trolls. There's no now of course not where the yeah, they're hiding in the trees Jimmy they're making cookies in the trees The mythological things that you built yeah, not there don't exist And norwegian folklore trolls are said to be about the size of if not smaller than humans Well, yeah a troll I think of a small if a troll is huge I'm terrified That sounds frightening They're supposed about the same size About oh smaller oh smaller they have ugly faces stout bodies and tails That's what I'm getting out of this Apart from the tail they've got me nailed that's it. That's us I'm a little smaller than a person Little smaller quite hairy. Yeah, no tail and your face is ugly you're good These trolls These trolls featured in Mount Horab hark into this tradition and residents have incorporated these trolls and characters all throughout the village so there's trolls all over the place There's painted trolls sculpted trolls trolls apart from logs with a chainsaw All deal they call main street the troll way Okay, each of the 40 trolls in Mount Horab have their own distinct identity such as the chicken thief the accordion player And sweet swill I guess that's the drunk troll Yeah, the fun one Yeah, the troll way was the chamber of commerce's way to attempt to draw traffic From the highway nearby and into the center of town to promote businesses. I want to be here. I want to go here This is crazy This just makes me think of the old rift tracks the Not it's called troll the movie, but it's about goblins. It's called troll two. I've seen that do troll two It's a funny. It's a it's a terrible bad movie and the town is called nilbog, which is goblin backwards And I feel like that's where we are right now. We're in nilbog We're in nilbog everybody enjoy So Views of this town here people like this place man. They love it. They love these trolls. I mean these could be trolls leaving the reviews We don't know It's a clever way to and unique because nobody else is doing this shit. No, no, I guess there's nothing else to do here So Five stars I couldn't imagine a better place to raise to rise children as what they say. I think they mean I'm gonna rise them up The streets are wide and welcoming with a bike trail that goes right through town And there are endless options for ways to be active with many parks in and around the area the school district supplies endless Opportunities a lot of endless things going on endless opportunities for growth. Well, if there isn't and how can the school district provide endless opportunities? It's gonna end at college So eventually it ends For growth and there's a culver's in town. Oh, well, welcome to Cash it in everybody. That's it. It's a franchise code endless opportunities at the school and a culvers So and then the next line could you could one ask for anything better? I guess not how about a vibrant main street with thriving local shops and restaurants to fit every little niche If that isn't enough the carved wooden trolls that line the street are more welcoming than they look Okay, five stars. Okay Here's five stars quote We are the town of trolls terrific great I had to see this I had to mention the trolls ahead of time The restaurants have great great great quality Yeah, I have great quality food and are in ideal locations Everyone in town is nice and welcoming to newcomers. We are in a great location outside of Madison So everything is great great food quality endless great troll goodness. It's all it is and a butterburger from culver's Oh, baby. That's just great. Okay, three stars Yeah, a bit of a drinking culture around here really in Wisconsin. No See sometimes these reviews are way off. I would never imagine Never in rural Wisconsin a half hour away from a college town to there'd be drinking. Are you kidding me? No No, no, no, this is our trolls everywhere everybody's clearly drunk. I see fucking trolls man. I swear This is like make one as much chainsaw. I figured this would be like a dry county like Arkansas somewhere, right? No Drinking culture around here. It's very much a small town that seems sweet on the outside But everyone gossips about everyone else's business. Yeah, you sons of bitches There are still quite a few very good people who live here and it has some beautiful parks around it and the military ridge running through it Well, I don't know Um a few good people. I thought they were gonna start naming them bill. He's nice I swear to god. I thought they were gonna start naming the good people at death population here 7,727 people so triple sevens in there. It's that's a lot of people But if they're spread out there some farms here and shit like that Um more male than female by a lot. It's like 53% male Which a lot of times that's when there's a lot of farm shit. You'll get that That way that's a lot of farm work Yeah, a lot of people live in town to do farm work and usually dudes median age is about average about 38 The 10 to 14 year olds very high So is it yeah, people were very fertile at a certain period of time here Right around 2004 55% married which is way more than the normal and all that kind of things It's very kind of family family all the stats are family leaning Race here not surprising. It's what's it's Wisconsin 93.9% white 1.3% black 0.2% Asian 2.1% Hispanic about what you'd expect from Wisconsin Religion here 47% religious which is just below the national average and is mostly Catholic actually Is that right? Catholic is the dominant with 12.4% Lutheran right behind it. So there you go 0.6% Jewish very close. We almost made it very close almost got there, but not quite Indane county Wisconsin, and I believe this is where Madison is by the way 75.5% of the people in the last election voted democratic 22.9% Republic and 1.7% independent Unemployment rate here is low Like about half the national average actually. But yeah, you can work in Madison So there's a lot of you can go a lot of places. There's a lot of options for employment Especially in a Madison's a bustling college town. So there's stuff to do there Media and household income here is a little bit higher than average. It's 63,634 Which is yeah, it's not bad a little bit higher than the national average cost of living those a little bit higher also Yeah, the average is being 100 for cost of living here. It's 104 Uh, housing is a little bit more expensive than everywhere else. That's the high thing 371,200 dollars as your average house Now a lot of these houses have a couple acres attached to them and shit like that which is part of it Not so much, but acreage and just it's by a college town which doesn't hurt And there's lakes and all kinds of shit there. It's absolutely beautiful area of country It's very nice So if we've convinced you that this area of the country is in fact for you So we have for you the Mount Harab, Wisconsin real estate report The average two bedroom rental here is just about the national average about $1,270 Maybe a little above the national average Uh, houses here they're all all these houses are all pretty new. They're all new construction places Yeah, there's nothing for sale that's like older. I don't know if they get passed down generationally or How it works, but uh, here's a two bedroom two bath 1424 square feet It's a nice house. It's not a huge house It's only two bedrooms and less than 1500 square feet But it's just like it looks like a nice new clean little house. It's all looks like uh 335,000 bucks for that I'm I'm a joint Not much just you're like normal, but that's your average. That's just under the average here of a house So it's that's what you're gonna pay here's a two bedroom two bath 1200 two square foot house It is brand new no one's ever lived here before it looks like they it looks like they built it for an hg tv show Like it's got all the you know the gray here and the white cats all the whatever the themes and standards of the day are Um, it is a 55 plus community though, so don't get your hopes up yet It says with verification and everything you have You got to have ID on the on the island table in the kitchen for some reason This is the weirdest thing. There's just a cake there like a fake black cake like a chocolate cake That doesn't look real and it has a slice taken out of it that's sitting on a plate next to it Also, no reason. It's just that's how they staged it. It's so fucking weird 400 $5,000 Oh I don't know if that includes the cake or what but I'm not sure Here's a three bedroom five bath tea bowl for each and every b-hole here guys 3,824 square feet Big house 11.48 acres Holy shit lots of land. It's built in 1986 and it has not been touched since obviously on the inside Everything is right right right here everything. Yeah, it's decorated in just Miami vice and Don Johnson and David Hasselhoff and Tom Selekan is mustache. It's yeah Hulk Hogan posing everywhere. It's crazy It just looks like it's from 1986, but it looks like the crime scene photos of a murders. We've done in Wisconsin It looks like it took place in this house. It's you know kind of got its own land one million one hundred thousand dollars for that So yeah dig deep everybody whoa big deep things to do Oh, baby the mount mount horob troll way there you go remember they talked about it It's to entice people it says say hello to your favorite trolls and then head out and enjoy all that mount horob has to offer This thing to do is drive down Main Street and look at the trolls and then Keep going and fucking find something else. I figured out on your own. That's it Our carve trolls are known to relax while watering flowers tending chickens. They're made of wood by the way. They're not playing Go to sleep then they do shit then they do shit obviously toy story playing music or just playing a whole Hamming it up for your viewing pleasure. They they've been doing the same things since they've been carved They protect the hidden gems of mount horob in our case they guard the friendly people in wonderful attractions of our community. Yeah Wow, that's a thing to do. Okay These Scanda hooverian winter festival. I'm not shedding you Very doctor susorians. Scandihoovean. Yes, that Scandinavian but Scanda hooverian. Yeah One chilly weekend every February the people of mount horob Wisconsin don their red pointy hats as they Celebrates the town celebrate the town Scandinavian heritage all are welcome to join in this weekend long family friendly Celebration of winter you put on a red hat and you celebrate that it's freezing outside That's like guys. It's still cold. It's it you go cold as fuck right high five and then you get the guy. Yeah I'm freezing my balls off two more months of this shit. Look at that my kids lips are blue and they're nice. This is great So don't pointy hats. What is this red pointy hats? Yeah, this is they literally said at one point They said we should have a festival and then that's how this festival came about. I'm not shedding you here They do uh, there's also some other events for activities a spelling bee for adults Brune ball on Stuart Lake frozen turkey bowling at the local skating rink A fat tire bike race. I don't know if your bike tires are fat or if you have to drink a bunch of fat tire and then try to ride a bike That would be more fun Norwegian fiddlers of course gotta have that So uh, it does say no crankiness allowed so you're not allowed to be mad that it's called Nope, you gotta enjoy the cold asshole I guess I'm gonna have smile motherfucker. Let's go. This is Wisconsin bitch put your hat on Does it have earmuffs your hat because you're gonna be free of it. It's fucking better. Oh man Then there is the festival for thirsty trolls Okay The thirsty troll brew fest is an intimate beer sampling that features 30 craft brewers intimate and be finger any while you drink And fermenters from across the Midwest serving over 125 different beer citer celtzers and more $50 these tickets are Is it all you can drink you get a tasting glass souvenir There will be a trolls gold voting taken to for your favorite brewer Unlimited tastings of 100. Yeah, you can drink as much as you want The box. This is packed you can get shit face there people are gonna be passed out Um enjoy live music catch up with old friends Yeah, they're there. I mean you can't promise that then That you want to throw down an extra 10 bucks for an entry fee quote think you're the strongest thirsty troll Test yourself in this Stein holding strength competition Purchase your entry when you purchase your tickets at the to our enter at the event Um the strength competition. So get drunk and then see how tough you are then see how strong you are That's that's great every year Fight people passed out. I would love to just what I want an aerial view of this I want to sit in like a balloon and watch this shit have up. They're starting to fall There's a stranger life. Yeah, drone footage of this. I want to watch the whole thing two giant blonde guys Are trying to beat the shit out of each other now. This is awesome. There's spend you got him. There we go I'll watch out Crime rate in this town. What we're interested in property crime a little more than half the average But almost half violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the Mount Rushmore of crime is about one third of the national average Oh, so very so the trolls keep it safe There's always eyewitnesses to anything that could happen. That's why They're always there looking just a trolling looking what a town hamming it up Um, that said let's talk about a murder shall we let's do that say that in preacher style let's talk about a murder Shall we let's do it. That's that's what I was yeah, you gotta get an amen. It's all right now Let's see November 17th 1981 let's go back to 81 That's stuff there born you're born A covered in goo people's giant puffy pubes. This is a time right here. What what day is it? It's December November 17 I'm nine months old. Yeah, you're getting there. You're about to start walking and causing trouble around this mother You're already a pain in the ass is what I would assume but this way I'm gonna kick dense and trailer definitely I've been a pain in the ass for a couple years already. So It's good. Uh, this is six p.m. November 17th 1981 Uh, call comes into 911 Uh, and this is what this 911 call says the exact quote is quote This is 103 Henry Street curly vice My wife is downstairs dead. She stiff as a board. Oh curly get on down here. That's it. Me fucking hangs up That's the 911 call. That's all the information we get out of him. That's it. That's what you get in out of me So now first of all Let's look over what he said To address my name my wife is downstairs dead. This is all pertinent information. Yeah Um, and then she stiff as a board which she's dead. So yeah, it's been a while now Normally this is one thing I will say for this because right away whenever anybody calls 911 says my wife's dead She's downstairs Because this is small town murder were immediately suspicious correct um, so they actually do very deep analysis of 911 calls over years of people Of people who are guilty of murder and people who aren't and uh and they're different 911 calls and they found very Stark similarities and people who didn't kill whoever they're calling about and people who did call And did do it and did do it. Yeah, they have very You can tell a lot there's a lot of reasons. There's lots of stories. This one is just straight up facts Generally, Kelly's pretty well innocent here. It's not scientific But generally people who didn't kill somebody they immediately want to tell you the address. That's first I need you here and then who it is helps or who who who the victim is Something like that one of those things and then my wife is downstairs dead. She's stiff as a board There's no I walked in and I was coming from over here because that's what you hear a lot of yeah Given the alibi into that 911 tape. Yeah, those phony 911 calls are setting up the alibi already So they're already saying I was doing this and then I think she did they're trying to explain how they could have ended up People who just want help for their injured spouse yell get over here. They're hurt holy shit Probably and if they ask what happened you got for fucking. I don't fucking know then they I found her like this and she came in Fucking so I don't know but they it's prompts the questions that get that shit out of them So right away that looks good for old old curly wise here his name by the way is Elmer is his real name Curly is his middle name or not his middle name, but it's not his given middle name But he's adopted it as his middle name curly. I'm curly. So um his the the reason why he's calling is because it they're 17 year old son John wise and wise is w y s s so it could be wiss I guess that is a wild one I'm going wise just because it's easier to say than whiss so They he had headed into the basement where the basement set up like a rec room as most of the Wisconsin basements are You know there's you know there's wood paneling down there. Oh for sure you absolutely know it Yeah, and at least a ping pong if not a foosball table. This is probably exposed rafters. Yeah and a keg is there a keg For sure. Yeah, there's a with a tap a neon bud light sign. Yeah, there's a tap and a foosball table down here. I see it um, maybe so They he had gone down there and found his mother very bloody and In the basement he came upstairs told his dad his dad looked called 911. Yeah, that's what ended up happening now The the weird part about the 911 call is As we'll find out well actually let me give you what's wrong with her here first. Okay Um, pathologist the police come in and the pathologist do determine that yes there is a dead woman in the basement and uh, they said that she died probably between two a.m. and noon. It's now six p.m Okay, so somewhere between two a.m. and noon from loss of blood due to multiple knife wounds now the word multiple I can't express how much of an understatement that is in the situation. Um, yeah Hey everybody just gonna take a quick break from the show to tell you a little bit about our safest sponsor out there Simply safe. Oh simply safe.com s.i m p l i safe.com. 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There's no safe like simply safe now back to the show Lou Perlman seemed like the ultimate American success story a kid from Queen to became a self-made millionaire and pop culture icon He created two of the biggest boy bands on the planet in sink and the back shoe boys and then squeeze them for every penny But they weren't the only ones he was taking advantage of Hi, I'm Sarah Haggie co-host of Wonder e's podcast scample answers where we unpack the stories of notorious scammers and con artists all over the globe In our recent two-part series so many strings attached We follow Lou Perlman's rise from aerospace entrepreneur to boy band mogul to architect of one of the largest Ponzi schemes in history This is the sinister story behind all those catch you lyrics and choreograph dance moves It's about fame greed and the dark side of the American dream Follow scample answers wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or wonder app Okay, her throat had been slashed You know, we'll give you who she is and everything like that in a minute here her throat had been slashed from ear to ear All the way to the vertebrae. Yeah, so I mean basically almost instructions. It's an OJ wound Where the head is almost taken off severing the major blood vessels arteries and veins on both sides. So really got it They said death was nearly instantaneous after receiving that wound But there's also 33 stab and cut wounds in the area of the upper chest Dozens and 12 and 20 slash wounds on the neck in addition to the giant obviously The huge you know, truly an attack. This is brutal. This is a this would take energy Yeah, and a lot of anger time. Yeah, and a lot of rage or a lot of something A lot of something because yeah, I wrote the someone just did like three grams of coke at once Yeah, and then had a someone in a fury to kill I'm gonna kill and then they did like three grams like because that's the only other way right or very angry at this person because It's certainly fueled by something Yeah, we're talking you know 45 to 53 stab wounds and a throat slashing is a lot One way or another did not want this person to continue to breathe clearly not They said there was a deep sawing groove on one of the three exposed vertebrae God, so we're talking knife sawing into the actual bone of the vertebrae in the back of the neck from a front side Slash That is strong The fingers of both her left and right hands had at least two slash wounds each as well Which they said were defensive wounds obviously. Yeah, so this she was you know alive and fighting So that tells you that the throat wound probably wasn't first right You know what I mean she's fighting. There's a lot of stabbing once there's some incapacitating going on from all these stabings and you Cut the throat um, so they said that this was the doctor said the same thing prior to the throat being slashed They said also that the wounds were somewhat jagged and irregular And were consistent with oh knife found near her which is a dull Surrated kitchen knife like what the fuck your average in the 80s everybody had the same set of cut co steak knives with the plastic handle Remember those serrated. Yeah, that's what it is pretty much. It's like that sort of like a shitty steak knife a shitty steak knife Yeah, that someone gave you for Christmas, you know eight years ago and you've been using it to cut the gone $2 Yeah so many cheap shitty so many two dollar chuck steaks over the years. It's not even funny So that's what we're talking about here. That's what this was done Which is makes it even more horrible obviously. Yeah, I'd right if you're gonna stab me to death Please make sure that knife is good and sharp and big and meant for that meant to really destroy something really get yourself a good stab A knife if you're gonna come at me don't know this I want to come to this yet taking forever tiny knife. No, don't go through my kitchen and pick the worst knives I'll show you where the good knives are pick one of those because they're you Scaring I swear to fuck will have yeah, I have machetes. You know what I mean? They're sharp and they're huge It'll really get this over with fast. I'll give you a good one because this I don't like it all I don't want this to be had to happen at all here They said this knife with a blade of about four and a half inches long. We all know this knife Was found partially obscured beneath her right arm They said then to shit probably right? Yeah, it definitely looks like it's it's done some shit here Mm-hmm the deep sawing groove in the fourth cervical vertebrae That they found not the one we talked about before matched the serrated edge of the knife so they They kind of line that up blood on the knife was consistent with that of hers as well So this looks like the murder weapon or at least one of them, you know what I mean? Yeah, um, so they said okay. Who was here this night? All right, so you have almer Elmer f. Weiss who's curly that's curly you have their Two children that are still home age they have older children as well who is a joley our joe a Dorothy You know that Dorothy is the the wife who's dead. She's the dead one and In all the court documents. It's Dorothy not Dorothy. Oh, D.O.R. T.H. Y. Dorothy. Do we call her dot? That's my favorite name I mean, I no one else calls her dot from what I was saying so I'm gonna We'll stick to stick with Dorothy for now. It's gonna be Dorothy because Dorothy's hard to say it is so Dorothy Here she's home John who's the son who's 17 years old. He found his mom and then their daughter Jo Reen Jo Reen Who was named after the famous Dalley partner impersonator? Yeah The famous Asian Dalley partner impersonator Jo Reen But that's true Is that true? No, it's not true No, I mean, not the kid name is definitely Jo Reen. Yes, it's Jo Reen, but that's not how they is there one I could see it existing. I know that's a sad part. I really good on the old strip in Vegas somewhere Yeah, that's the one That's not a dance in out front of the plaza. That is not offensive by the way Think that's offensive you are definitely as an of the wrong Yeah, that's just good stupid humor and And making fun of Vegas if you've ever been there you understand so You know it could exist if you've been to the old strip you go you know what that good That's why you went is that for real? Why does that exist here? Because every time I've been down the old strip I go why does that exist? Why are you here for what? My four why why are you here? I don't get it. What are you doing here? Why are you mixing? So they're mixing Jo Reen and Dorine together? Yes, they're getting Jo Reen. I don't like it I don't like that at all. It's a tough. It's only tough because for the kids she what's your name Jo Reen? Jo Reen how many times did she go through that in her life? Jo Reen oh okay with an R okay Why does this exist? Is that a name? Yeah, I've never heard that name before I've never heard Jo Reen as a name before but never At this moment she's 13 and her mother's been brutally stabbed in the basement. So we'll leave poor Jo Reen alone for now She can hang onto that name for a while and we'll leave it So let's find out who these people are and how we got here. Okay, um, because now we we've set a horrible scene They said by the way there is blood Everywhere and I mean it's and her son found this that's her son her 17 year old found this to go He was going down to do something. He was something with a stereo or some shit. He was going down But going to be a 17 year old in the basement. Yeah, gonna go hang in there get that foosball going for practice my shot It's obviously there's no one to play against like a practice my quick wrist. So I The amount of blood they said that that was down there was just like all I mean yeah like you A cut a person open and swung them around in a circle. I mean it was just From all the stab wounds and the hacking so there's spatter going back and then once you cut a throat That's a sprain blood everywhere. So it's out. Yeah, it's disgusting as you can imagine So let's find out as of as of 1981 who are these people okay? First of all you have almer f. Weiss who's curly that's curly Curly is 49 years old in 1981. He's born in 1932 Curly I found out he's had an interesting little life here. He had some fun stuff happen He played high school. He was a big athlete in high school Yeah, he played baseball and basketball in high school And was pretty good at baseball from what I imagine or from what I read and then basketball he was on the team anyway Um, he went to orangeville high graduated in 1950 and went into the navy Wow And this was a time between World War II and Korea. So good time to not be in a war Very small than other. No, he doesn't know what's what's coming But he's stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. So that's where he ends up being for a while there He gets engaged to another orangeville student who's a few years younger than him Uh, name Dorothy here. Uh, gets engaged to her in 1952 Uh, when she's still in high school and he's in the navy Uh, we'll talk about their wedding in a second. Oh my goodness. What a what a lovely affair here But I'm sure before he gets before he gets engaged to her he has something crazy happen in 1952 Okay, um He apparently had a farm South 14 mile southwest of upper Sandusky, all right Um, I know Oh, I think it's Wisconsin. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a ski. It's in Wisconsin. There's one up there too So he apparently was going into the woods on his farm to dump some trash, you know as you do I guess and um when he did that he found a human leg What he found a human leg and he called the sheriff and he called the coroner as he found after he found the egg Leg he found other stuff just by standing there looking around. Uh, they found some arms Oh boy old curly did uh, then they found a head the whole the whole thing the whole thing just in pieces and parts Like a like a dumped bucket of first and um within a 200 foot radius radius of a depression torn into the ground by an explosion What the torso was nearby in five pieces What did what did That happened now neighbors This is why this is weird man. I don't I don't know about this with him on neighbors of of Elmer Curly here said that they saw Headlights of a car enter and leave the woods shortly before a big blast shook the ground at about 9 30 pm the day before Um, they they thought the explosion was at the nearby stone quarry so they didn't think anything of it there So they ended up um, we're seeking two suspects that they thought were safe crackers Um for questioning in the murder of a Cleveland filling station operator Cleveland he came for a hire. Yeah Whose body was dynamited to prevent identification They say this man was shot and then blown up with dynamite To not be found blown up with The dynamite oh shit and early found this it was on his farm. It was right by like That's what makes it like kind of like yeah, what the fuck would you do curly that strange here. So the sheriff um said the victim was Carl Quimbin of Cleveland, Elias Carl Stone Identification was made from the fingerprints taken when he was arrested a few months earlier Um, and pleaded guilty to passing a bad check in Cleveland um, so they said they were found strewn over a big area police obtained Uh, all these fingerprints from everybody um, they The identification was the first break in the case and they said they Jesus Christ They his wife saying that her husband indicated that he did something with two men who he called safe crackers and so they were trying to find What happened here? Uh, they were looking for these safe crackers to talk to them. So The they said he was shot in the head and then blown apart by dynamite, but it's found He finds him on his farm and then they never find anybody Who did it who did it? Yeah. Yeah So and told Dorothy that he worked with two people on a no no no This is the guy who disappeared told his wife Oh, he had worked with two people the safe cracker guys that's the only lead they have on any kind of underworld Anybody that would want to blow somebody up. So yeah, and safe crackers might keep explosives too, so they thought that would go But also people on farms have explosives as well They do stomp removals and shit like that. Yeah, so it's you know, it's one of those deals. Oh no So he gets engaged to our our deceased woman here Dorothy may But uh boost boost John is her name BUS J a h n bus John bus. John She's a lot of her getting rid of that name. Wow, and then she got whist. Well W was so it's another equally puzzling name She was born in 36 She also went to orangeville high school where she was a golfer there. Oh seems like she golfs for years after this too She's not right a good golfer in high school here um she Um, I guess he at this point when they got engaged it was announced in the paper He was working for Wally Tusher in South Wayne There you go. So they get married in 1954 and it's a I found the August 25th 1954. I found the newspaper article and oh boy. It says how uh She's the daughter of Geraldine and and he's the daughter of bird. He's the son of Bertha So there you go. They're married and the bride wore a ballerina length gown of nylon Tall to you LLE. I don't know what that is And Alan's we are terrible with wedding dress materials and remember the other last one we talked about a wedding dress And Alan con lace and triple tiered skirt of tall or tool or whatever that is Excented with a wide band of lace a long sleeve ballerro Applicade Uh, I don't even know it's hard to tell because it's an old newspaper something with lace Covered the boat is there it is. Bo to see Bo to see Bo to say there. Bo there is again Damn it of the gown She wore half that lace trimmed with sequins and seed pearls and held her imported silk illusion veil featuring a hand rolled hem Oh shit, that sounds elaborate Complicated is what it sounds like yeah it does um and then they talked about her bridesmaids wearing identical cold bullshit and all that so That's what they do. Yeah, that's what they do 1957 I see old Elmer here old curly gets uh busted for having an improper muffler. Oh That is car. I don't want to do that. That's gonna cost him ten bucks. So Ha ha ha ha ten dollar fine there. That's not great. I see he wrote a letter to the capital times The letter to the editor of the capital times newspaper on March 25th 1964 that said uh Dear art we would like to schedule a few games with softball teams from the American Badger and Chip-a-Wah leagues For my team Joe's bar at Mount Horib Joe's bar with welcome all comments come find it's right. We can play any night at eight except Friday Which is our league night? We hope to start our season about the second week in May We played a few of the teams last year would like more this year We have a feel we have a fine team and can give them all a battle teams may contact me by writing to Elmer Whist and he gives the address. I enjoy your column very much. He says as well Elmer-Wice manager Joe's bar. Oh, he's the manager. He's the manager of Joe's bar at that moment in time So 1972 Okay, Dorothy and Curly sue the town of Mount Horib Because of this is you'd sue too and so would I um they're suing by the way for a hundred thousand dollars in 1972 in damages for a sewage backup They said was due to negligence on the part of the village of Mount Horib Um, they said that in the complaint that sewage flowing through the village of Mount Horib sewer system back into their basement on November first God damn it. That's gross. They turn that into a rec room holy shit I ever get the poop smell out. Oh, that's what she died. Oh my god. In addition Uh, they said that when they he tried to inspect his basement after the sewage backup He fell on steps made slippery by the stew sewage and injured his back while falling into the sewage So then he was laying there with an injured back going help help I'm in I'm in sewage someone fucking help me Oh my god. What did he win or did they blame it on the troll? They said sorry the trolls get into the pipe sometimes he got drunk last night. It was a smiley one. It's a troll town You know the one with the big beerstein it's him he hooked up with the strongest man from the competition They get into tarant shit up. It's over So they said the sewer uh the sewage system lift stations and sewer lines and other pertinent parts of the sewage and disposal systems were carelessly and properly and negligently Negligently designed installed and maintained by the village and they're asking for a hundred thousand dollars They get some money out of that and I believe that's how they fix and finish their whole basement as well So this finished basement exists because of a shit backup. Mm-hmm So the things that shit talk about shit rolling downhill. Yeah, this is like uh Wow, this is quite the butterfly effect Yeah If the butterfly If the butterfly effect was about just tons of raw sewage that's what this would be about So if that if the basement's a concrete one you've got like a a waterline on a wall from the always Shit line. Yeah, you're gonna have a poop line. Oh boy. Always remember. That's not good. Corn all stuck in there. No one wants that Yikes So 1981 when the this whole Dorothy is is killed here. Let's catch up with them. Curly is currently A cheese maker of course he is what else would he be Really he manages a cheese factory. Yes, and they're gonna they almost made a movie City slickers three the legend of curly's cheese Curly's gold cheese the legend of curly's cheddar. I believe they're gonna call it Yeah So yeah, he manages a cheese factory. That's what he does Which sounds so made up if I just said yeah, there's this guy in Wisconsin his name's curly and he manages a cheese factory You go get the fuck out of here curly's curds Elmer curly. He wears overalls to that cheese factory. Oh, yeah I picture him every day wearing like the red and black lumberjack flannel. Yeah, with overalls over it That's his work I stay so they have at least four kids that I can figure out here. Okay, they have Jackie who's the oldest She's a daughter who's married out of the house. They have Terry who's another out of the house older daughter Yeah, they have John. He's the son who found his mom and then they have Jorine Jorine Jorine Jorine obviously She's 13 and here she is as well now John says that His mother and father have had marital problems. They've been married for 27 years They've had problems. You're gonna find a little there's some baggage. There's fighting He said but they had been getting along quote very well in recent months. Oh things have been going well Now he's the only one who seems to say that though now there are Romers around town as soon as door of these body is pulled out of the house And this is this case. This town is gossipy. They really are like later on there's a lot of quotes really like This is a gossipy ass town you people shut the fuck up Like all of you shut up. Where are you about yourself? Yeah mind your business already um While we talk about this they said um This spawned dozens of rumors in this town that Dorothy might have been killed by an intruder Connected with the drug world and there's a lot of reasons for this um Reason is she had told friends of hers that she had used that she used drugs on a regular basis. Oh And that she had angered someone In the drug community. Yeah, the drug community and there were reports by the way all around the neighborhood Many people had reports of an quote unfamiliar man Seen in the neighborhood a few days before the murder. Okay, so they saw a stranger And one time she smoked a joint And then she told the guy this ain't shit. Yeah, she was like this is bullshit. Yeah, this is you call this fucking You call this chocolate tie and then it was a So yeah, that's what's going on But she had told French she did use drugs. She pissed somebody off So friends had said that and unfamiliar person in the neighborhood it could it wasn't a troll We don't know wasn't a tourist looking for trolls that's that's the thing was it somebody going I'm looking for the I heard there's a troll and he's just he's doing the cutest thing And I need to find there's a lot of fun around here. There's just so much fun to be found with these dang trolls So the relationship Obviously Curly's gonna get questioned by deputies and and detectives about what's up Yeah, what's that so how's your marriage going we found your wife You know taking apart with a knife in the basement things okay? Everything okay in the home front Happy wife happy life. What are we talking here so Now he curly described himself as extremely jealous. Oh very jealous. He said he said that his wife liked to go out And hang out in bars all the time and all hang out and you know make friends and fuck around in bars And he said that she would often quote Flot this by bringing guys home Okay, I don't like that. That's what he tells them afterwards. Yeah, so I don't know if that that was um You know if you she she would bring guys home I guess for what he said him for it You know, I mean no because it would be in the middle of the night. So this would be for She'd bring guys home to fuck them apparently is it what he's saying right? Yeah, so I don't know if the basement was the The fuck down according to him if that's what he's claiming or what here so He told the detective that her running around and being gone pissed him off all the time because he never knew who she was with or what she was doing She should come home with guys and she'd do all this shit. She said that um That uh or he said Elmer said that curly told the detective that if she was loud enough when she came home To the point where it woke him up in the middle of the night as he said he had to get up He had to get up by he had to be like out of the house by five to madam to cheese factory. She's mongers early days Well, she's doesn't hurt itself, you know what I mean you gotta get in there. You gotta get in there So um he said the early worm the early early bird gets the cheese we all know this So he said that uh Elmer told him that if she was loud enough to that point that it woke him up in the middle of the night He'd get angry and would often get up To yell at her and that would lead between to a half asleep slash drunk an argument at two o'clock in the morning Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. I don't want to know what he heard mom's drunk and dad's pissed great. Yeah So um Curly also told the detective that this secure this would occur After one or both of them had been drinking as well too. They'd get an argument all the time Which two drunk people that happens a lot So yeah, there's no reasonable person there at that point. It's a very understandable argument Yeah, we're both shit face So they said that he said later on Curly would tell them that there would be arguments after she went Quote uptown and got back in the evenings also so Where before she'd leave they'd fight when he's she got home they'd fight they'd fight fight fight So he also admitted That he had physically abused her during their years of marriage Okay, he said he has physically abused her over the years quite a bit as a matter of fact All right. Yeah, on a regular pretty regular basis um here um he did say though there has been no abuse during the last year Haven't touch I'm punch free haven't touched her in a year. It's pretty good. Where's my chip? Where's my chip for that? So what the fuck is that about and he's the chip with the boxing glove with the slasper? Super proud of it that he hasn't beat his wife The first 26 years of marriage fine, but the last year I've been a saint And 38 days clean wow. Yeah, so the sun and John said the same thing as they didn't seem to be They seem to be getting along better over in the last year probably because there's less beatings That would help that's gonna help the relationship So um yeah, there you go now she went to A psychiatrist in 1981 between January and June of 1981 she went to see a psychiatrist a dr. Merrick J. Hahn And Dorothy told this dr. Hahn that she lived in fear of her husband. Oh Um, yes, so especially when he's drinking he's extra scary Which is not as you know surprise that seems seems pretty standard for the course. Yeah. Yeah Um, they said Hahn said he treated her for help with smoke with quitting smoking and anxiety She wanted to quit smoking she was nervous Um, Hahn said that Dorothy told him that quote her husband had a tendency to become violent while under the influence of alcohol He gets drunken beats me, you know And I like to quit smoking and this environment is not helping that not conducive. Yeah, I'd love a cigarette after he's Yeah, you know, I'm scared of him being drunk and violent. So I can't imagine she's the first person sitting in a chair Who's told the psychiatrist this particular information here? Um, the psychiatrist also said that Dorothy kept talking about her husband being a heavy drinker She said he would drink all day long just sipping She's one of those people who starts early and just he's drinking all day long not binge drinking like not trying to get as much in him as He's possible, but he's always got a buzz go maintain it. Yeah maintain it always Oh, and you could kick that in the high gear by slamming a couple quick and you could really get drunk and He uh Dorothy also told the psychiatrist that there were occasions when Curly had been abusive toward her and specifically pointed to a fight that they had in January of 1981 This is right before she started seeing the psychiatrist She also expressed concern that her husband quote may become violent with the children Especially their son John Really because he's 17 and you know how he might have he might not love it that if you know dad's beaten on mom Yeah, but time you're 17 you start to go hey no I got in a fight at school. I know what punch feels like I'm not doing that. Yeah, you're not doing that shit anymore So by 17 he may become a challenge to his father. Yeah, so This is what's going on here. This is what she said to the to the you know to the psychiatrist So that's not great Neighbors when police talk to neighbors as well Neighbors who live across the street had overheard numerous arguments between Dorothy and Curly Sometimes starting around midnight and continuing till three or four in the morning three or four hour fights of drunk and arguing Oh God with the volume knob turned up Oh, yeah, rip the knob off. Yeah like a Turn it up and rip off the knob Domestic violence. This is horrible Turn it up and break you break the knob off. This is the worst morning radius show ever. This is terrible Fucking disgusting. So yeah, are youing all night long here? Um in March of 81 Dorothy fled to her daughter's house which is like They have an apartment, but it's like right down the street. It's walking distance So she just ran out crying and ran over to her daughter's apartment saying that if she didn't get out Curly was gonna kill her That was her quote your father's gonna kill me if I don't get out of the house. Okay. I mean we got him great suspect for this This is yeah, this is this is not looking great. She spent the night in a local motel that night And um, yeah, then she had told her husband her psychiatrist all through this because she had seen the psychiatrist right after that that she was Definitely definitely living in fear and all that sort of thing So when they find all this out they ask Elmer had you ever threatened your wife? Right It's one of the questions they ask curly Elmer curly and old old Elmer curly says this quote I told her that if she didn't clean up or act she'd find her throat slit Curly curls Curls I told her if she didn't fix what she was doing she's gonna end up the way y'all found her the way y'all I told her that if she didn't stop doing the stuff. I don't like her doing that This is what would happen and that's what happened in my own house. So I know American scandal is a podcast from Wondery that takes you deep into the most infamous scandals in American history Bringing to life controversies and events that have shaped who we are as a country and that continue to define the American experience American scandal tells marquee stories about American politics like the break in at the Watergate hotel An event that led to the downfall of a president and raised questions about the future of American democracy They go behind the scenes looking at devastating financial crimes like the fraud committed at enron and Bernie made-offs Ponzi scheme and they tell the stories of complicated public figures like Edward Snowden and Monica Lewinsky People who found themselves thrust into the spotlight and who sparked debates about the future of the country Follow American scandal wherever you get podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app Um, he said though That that wasn't meaning that like I was gonna cut her throat. That's what he said He said I wasn't gonna slither throat He said I just made that statement in reference to the danger she faced from her association with criminal drug dealers It was a Someone who cares about her giving her like a warning of you know, I don't want this to happen to you. That's his claim Yeah, like I'm sure OJ told Nicole right beforehand that you know, you got to stop Um, yeah ridiculous. It's so stupid. So March 19th 1981 is the Dorothey getting upset and marching over to her or daughters apart just a few months ago That was just yeah a few months before this. This was at 1 a.m. She showed up at her daughter Jackie's door daughter Jackie and husband Lester there showed up at their door. They got into a fight Um, well Here's what happened They Dorothy showed up at their door because she had gotten into a fight with Elmer and Curly Yeah, the reason why they were in a fight is because Elmer at 1 a.m. had gotten into a fist fight with another man inside their home Okay, so it seemed Spoiled every good time Elmer Dorothy brought a guy home. It seems from the bar And Elmer heard him coming in and didn't like that so much so Elmer beat the shit out of this guy Oh god in his own house here Um, and the daughter said when Dorothy showed up all upset about this She said quote she said she didn't know if he was gonna kill the man So look like Elmer was gonna beat this guy to death in his own home Which understandable if you wake up at one in the morning and there's some guy about to fucking pork your wife in your own house You might beat him have to death You know what I mean If he did and he didn't hit her that night Which is to get all out on that man. Yeah, he beat the shit. Well she ran out of the house So she probably knew she was next and fucking ran away if which makes sense. So um That is crazy um, I guess they um So the the husband Jackie the daughter's husband Lester Yeah, he went over to the house to see what was up like Dorothy was like go over there and see if you can calm him down Like fuck's it can either calm him down or call the police about the body. Yeah, or do something So once he gets there though, it's just curly alone in the house. Oh sit in there But he helped his father-in-law clean up the blood in the kitchen He put his shit out of the house. Yeah, there was blood all over the kitchen that they had to clean up So middle of the night this poor guy mother-in-law drunk and mother-in-law banging on the door He has to go over there and help his father-in-law clean up some other drunk's blood in his kitchen in the middle of the fucking night He's like I got him so much Jackie's I got to be up at 630. This is yeah Jackie Jesus. He's a good husband this guy Sure is what would you say to this request? No, not my problem. Yeah, I don't know man if he kills him that's their thing I don't know mom can hang out here if she wants but I don't other than that I'm not getting more involved than that right That seems like a lot especially if you're you know how they are if you've been in this family you're married to Jackie You know how things go in this family and it's and Lester's seen what he's done to Jackie's mom If he's gonna do that to a woman holy fuck I'm gonna get over there's gonna be a blood bath whatever he did to this man. It's gonna be brutal Yeah, so um Apparently according to Lester Curly said that he had seen the man at a bar earlier that evening Went to the bar to Confront this man to tell him to stay the hell away from his wife He said you stay the hell away from my wife then at one I am this guy is in his house with his wife It's okay. This guy asked for a beating. I'm sorry. I'm on curly For this one if a person tells you hey, I'm not cool like it's not like that live show where that lady was like my husband's really cool He's not cool with this, you know what I mean at all and he's gonna come up and and fucking be like you stay the shit away for my wife And then you're gonna show up at one of the morning I would expect to get my ass kicked if I'm that other man Fuck yes, I'm I'm hoping old Elmer doesn't wake up because he's definitely gonna want to what my ass So what what did Dorothy do to coax that man what man in his right mind A joke one there. Yeah, it's run to anyone She's like we can sneak in it's okay, and she's like Basement. Yeah, it's okay. It's still smells like poop. I'll go So they had seen that's what he said he had seen him and uh, so Lester All said that um This happened often that he would be asked by Dorothy to come over and try to quote come Hurley down when she suspected an argument was coming When things were starting to get tense she'd call up the kids and be like why don't you guys come over Get a buffer in between the two of us Lester's like the curly whisperer. He comes him down and then I think More bastard having the daughter there maybe Comes the situation down a little bit having the adult daughter there. I don't know So on November 17th 1981, which is the day of the murder here The Where were they how did this happen? What what led to this? Okay, well And Ericsson is the woman that on the night of the 16th that Dorothy had been out drinking with Yeah, woman named and Ericsson again very Viking Ericsson Yeah, um They were hanging out the night of the 16th and um this and is the woman who dropped Dorothy at home Shortly after 1 a.m She said that they met at the Viking Bowl, which is a bowling alley where you drink That is very Wisconsin Meet me at the Viking Bowl so we can get shit tanked and then I'll drop you off at home at 1 a.m After we've been both just both been drinking a lot of booze Literally the most disgusting sport on earth. It's fucking amazing. So they stop like bowling though. It's fun It's good, but it's so gross. Oh, it's oh yeah, get your own balls and choose and it's not as gross. It's fine then Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah get your own shoes mainly Yeah, there's so much of the the balls and other people's shit all the shoes are the main thing I don't want to wear another person's shoes. That's disgusting That was they been out doing an activity into especially hundreds of people Yeah, so they met at the Viking Bowl then stopped at several other bars before oh my they had a full night of it Drinking and having a ball and then she dropped her off at like one She said that Dorothy was feeling good, but not drunker and toxicated I'm sure you she is hammered. I was just gonna say we have to We have to kind of Soft in this for Wisconsin because feeling good, but not drunker and toxicated in rural Wisconsin Means something different than wherever you are right now. Yeah, she was drinking all day. Yeah You're thinking buzz Drunker and toxicated it's buzzed I'm walking around feeling all right no slurring of speech You know that's drunken that's that just means conscious is drunk or not intoxicated I mean she walked into the house on her own power. So I feel like she was you know feeling good, but not drunker and toxicated And otherwise she had fallen out of the car when I opened the door for you know It's a different different deal there. So um they talked about she had some appointments there um Dorothy um she and uh people had called. I guess she had appointments that day she had a hair appointment She had some other appointments that day because she missed I guess um now curly What did he do the night before he attended a basketball game? Oh on the night of November 16th I assume a high school game possibly maybe went over to Madison watched a badgers game I'm not sure it seems like it was a local deal though um because they were at somebody's house before that This is while she went out and drank at bars. He went to the basketball game a friend of theirs named David L. Flum He knew there's no them for 25 years, you know, no them forever He said that curly and Dorothy visited his home on November 16th Um that he was on his way to a basketball game and that Curly wanted David to come along with him to the basketball game But flammed and feel like going So um when Curly left the home he asked his brother-in-law if he would uh see to it that Dorothy got home from here Because they were both over there right He came well Elmer came over with Dorothy and then he said okay Well, we're gonna go. Well you get make sure she gets home. They said then curly kissed his wife goodbye and left for the game Okay, he said quote they were getting along real well Must have been a good kiss. That's that night. So that's fine He curly said he returned home about 9.45 pm And he walked through the door. Yeah, he watched some TV Uh, I'm the first floor, which is the above the basement Um, then he went to sleep in the ground floor basement or bedroom not the basement This is the first floor bedroom that he shared with Dorothy Uh, he said that he didn't sleep well that night though and woke up at approximately 1 a.m. When he heard Dorothy come in the door Oh So he hears are coming the door now. We know when she's loud enough to wake him up. He kisses him off. He gets up and he gets mad Yeah, he even said that so um She uh and at the 1 a.m. is like we said backed up by and Eric's in her drach or off at 1 a.m Um, by the way This is a feeling good but not intoxicated. Yeah or or drunk uh in Wisconsin That means a.21 alcohol level. That's what they found inside her blood alcohol content for her of.21 My god Yeah, that's pretty fucking drunk I'm sorry That's drunk you've been drinking that's you've been fucking drinking. You're going to jail for a while if you drive Yeah, watch a long live pd or on patrol whatever it's called now And you'll see somebody blow you'll see wow he's pretty tanked and they blow like a fucking point one nine You're like yeah, they're pretty fucking hammered point 21 is pretty drunk, but not Not that drunk in Wisconsin Which means her friend was probably at the same amount and she was driving So yeah What does that tell you? Wow, we're all risk Wisconsin get it together man um, so Curly said immediately after she came home. He said like he heard her come in and then heard you know walking Bump bump bump bump bump bump hurt her Immediately go to the bathroom and start vomiting again a sign of not being very drunk Point 21 and he's buking she's puking now the point 21 to think about this her alcohol level was point 21 in the autopsy right You know what I'm saying? So 0.28 here who knows that's what I mean. We have no idea and all well the body sat there to who knows So when you when you're that drunk when somebody else is driving you will get so puke. Oh, you'll get puke Yeah, she came right in and puke That's that's a sinus or friends a shit driver. Yeah her friends. Oh, or there's windy roads We don't know they might have fucking had to dodge a deer or two also So he said he went back to sleep after that. He was like, I don't know went back to sleep Herter Pukin was like well, she's home. I guess and went back to sleep He said then he woke up a little bit later and heard her vomiting in the basement rec room Oh Okay, now we'll find out why there's a a weird sound thing in this house that's By the way, it's built or you can hear everything that happens in the basement everywhere in the house It's very strange So he said that it wasn't unusual for her to sleep in the rec room basement on the couch That was normal for her to do especially when she sleep went off So he got up he said at 220 a.m. He said he arose from bed So wife gets home puke and it one goes back to sleep sometime between one and two Here's our puke in the basement and then by 220 he just says fuck it and gets up Okay He gets up This is what he does in the middle of the night gets out of bed cleans the kitchen Really, okay? Said he didn't check on her at all clean the kitchen Then he went back to bed and read a little while and then fell asleep and then he had to get up at 4 30 a.m. To leave by time So even though he has to get up at 4 30 he woke up at 2 20 and said I should clean the kitchen He's doing house chores then go back to bed Not I'll get up early now fuck it. I'll just stay up till I have to go to work I'll clean the kitchen. I have nothing better to do nothing's on the middle of the night It is good for sleep structure if you get up and do some light light activities Just clean the kitchen at 2 20 a.m. That's fine And then he goes back so what do you get maybe an hour sleep? How long's taking a clean the kitchen and read? You know what I mean? So he goes back to bed Got up at 4 30 a.m. Went to work at 5 to manage the cheese factory time to make the cheese over here So he said he worked the entire day came home that evening started to prepare dinner And then it was after that at 6 p.m. When his son discovered Dorothy in the basement and that's when he learned she'd been killed He didn't know where she was he was like I don't know where in our window 5 we have a 4 3 hour and a half no 6 p.m. That happened. Oh He said I heard her vomiting at about 2 a.m. And then no one heard shit from her till Till 6 p.m. The following day So you got a you got a 16 hour window here. Holy of when he's saying he last heard her to when they found her Okay, so he obviously denies he's like why didn't kill her shit he denied killing her to everyone Um, and that's when the deputy sheriff asked him and about the shit and he said I told her she didn't clean up her action Got her throat slipped older look at her. So it's lit told her Um Now John they talked to John as well. He's 17 Yeah, he said he went to sleep about 9 p.m. Kind of 17 year old goes to bed at 9 o'clock. Oh good boy. Oh good, but not me I wasn't even home by 9 o'clock at that age. I can't I can't even get my 14 year old to do it. No I wasn't even home by 9 at that age. I was out smoking weed at 9 At 10 going on 43 is what is who does that? Yeah, that's that's yeah, if that sounds great right now Yeah, I'd like to take a nice long 9 o'clock nap. That sounds pretty good So I've been trying to get myself to do is go to bed at 9 and then 11 30 rolls around. Yeah good luck with that shit Then I happen 9 o'clock Nine's just too early for a human to go to sleep unless you unless you're doing far more or you get Like you're like a baker or something like that someone who is absolutely imperative that you get up at 4 o'clock in the morning Like I know other Can't go any later You know, there's the only people though the military if by 5 a.m. The day is fucked if you're not there Then you need to be in bed at 9 then you need to be in bed at 9 otherwise. Let's all chill the fuck out a little bit That's all calm down. No one needs to be in bed that early so But he's trying to get asleep. He said that he was awoken though Sometime between 2 and 3 a.m. When he heard what he described as a single dull or deadened scream Not a piercing a dollar deadened scream By his mother he recognized it as his mother screams. He's heard her scream quite a bit Coming from the basement rec room Okay, at the time when Curly said he was cleaning the kitchen right Okay Yeah, he said though that he had never heard his mother scream like that before it was a different scream He said he didn't investigate because as he said quote it was none of my business Huh Man of boy He gets it um said none of my business and he said that if his mother was arguing with his father They might be fighting about it and the last thing he wants to do it two in the morning is go wander down and go What you guys fighting about what's the matter? Yep He just wants to go back to sleep and ignore it and go to school the next day He said he stayed awake for a few minutes then went back to sleep He got up about 7 30 left for school about eight So that's his day he said when he came home from school on November 17th His father asked him if he had heard his mother the previous night and John had said he didn't though He said no So because he didn't want to get involved or hear his father's story about he just said no I don't know nothing. He's just trying to ignore and uh and that John said no He said that Elmer told him Carly told him that she had quote a real doozy when she came home She was shit shit faced and I guess I'm quite the mood when she came home is what uh Carly tells his son. This is before they find the body So after uh Carly Finds out late he doesn't find out that John heard a scream till later when the police tell him your son Her to scream what was that all about um So curly asked John if it could have been the noise from the ice machine and the refrigerator that he heard rather than a scream Because obviously those noises sound very similar You need a new refrigerator. Yeah Your mother screaming for her life or a couple ice cubes being dropped into a fucking tray I get that it's 81 and the ice makers weren't that great in the fridges yet, but uh A woman's dying scream. You're a world for all sick Wow, you really got to get the Get the mate man over there. Yeah, he's got something to do now It's got his work cut out for him. It's your old ass up over here. We can't tell if it's a murder or a new batch of ice So uh John had told him it was definitely not the ice machine You can tell the difference dummy so That is crazy now curly said that he didn't hear a scream at all He tells the police later on he said the only thing that sound he heard his wife making was wretching and vomiting noises from the basement Yeah, that's it. That was about the time that John heard the scream apparently so Rouching vomiting or screaming for her life or screaming for her life So he's trying to say maybe he heard her pukin. I don't know or maybe I heard her screaming and thought I heard her puking Yeah, so they're saying somebody was confused with someone's be confused between throwing up and you know your death throws Someone's sound gross. It's I'm sometimes it really does sound bad and like afterwards. I'll almost like kind of whimper to myself a little bit The couple weeks ago and I got sick and I had food poisoning all night and I threw up like every hour by like three four in the morning I was just I would throw up and then go I Literally just feel like why it hurts so bad my fucking ribs hurt I just give a little stop but it didn't wouldn't be confused with me being murdered and screaming for it You know, I didn't know that my friend and Detroit me fed me all kinds of meats and we went downstairs And I puked in the Detroit River had my back torn to him when I did it and he goes oh my god Was that a pew? I was like yeah, he goes are you okay? Oh fine. Yeah. Oh god You were pew I'm gonna eat this guy's food. Yeah, yeah, but whatever noise I make to do that evidently sounds horrifying Yeah, yeah, it's sound like an animal like I hit by a car, but still not a murdered person. Yeah, it's not That's not where he stopped. Yeah, I've never done that I'd never thrown up and just went Oh god, it's never happened before yeah, so um, he stated here Elmer said curly that the sound carries easily from the rec room in the basement All the way to their bedroom and john's bedroom because of okay quote a register running under the ceiling of the rec room to those two bedrooms So they talked to the AC vents to each so apparently yes, you can hear from that He said it carried very easily He said quote we always used to say why the hell did they put that damn thing in because every darn sound could be heard from that rec room I know it's rare that people use damn and darn in the same sentence. Yeah Usually you go full damn or you just stick with darn, but you don't usually say god damn it This darn thing is driving me crazy unless you say it and then you go it's not it doesn't warrant that word yet Yeah, I may be that's what it is why the hell they put that damn thing in there because every darn sound could be heard from that Rec room okay, so that's where we get the sounds now Jackie Daughter again here that lives in the apartment nearby She said that after shortly after Dorothy's body was discovered while curly was distraught she heard him say quote Why did you get drunk? Why did you make me mad at you Which is not what you want to be heard saying no Why did you do that then she said that Uh, he just kept kind of saying why why why Okay That's what the police have her statement as in the beginning her sister Terry who was also there said that she never heard her father make any statement And she was by him the whole time okay, she never heard him say that Jackie's husband Says uh also they talked to him. He's got something to talk about on the stranger theory, okay Uh-huh. He said that a stranger came to their apartment which is two houses away from the Elk Carly and Dorothy's home yeah, at about seven p.m. On November 12th and November 16 Both days both days this stranger asked for a blonde woman who lived in the neighborhood that he was quote looking for She had died her hair blonde in the last few months so Dorothy so You know somebody a stranger could have been looking for her two doors away The night of the murder at seven p.m. Okay According to uh according to lester now joreen She said She uh went to bed that night and heard nothing about nothing from nothing no puking no screaming nothing She slept through the night woke up about 7 30 went to school at eight doesn't know anything wow doesn't know shit So the emergency medical service crew that responded to the home here they described Elmer as quote very agitated very upset Crying and rather incoherent when they got there Okay, which is all makes sense if you found your wife slaughtered in the basement makes sense both ways really make sense Whether you killed her whether you didn't kill her, you know, whatever whether you're trying to put on a show Or you actually didn't do anything it all makes sense there One of the members of the crew Mickey Dean and he said he was assigned to stay with and comfort curly at the scene Yeah hang with him make sure he doesn't do anything weird Um, he described him as incoherent He said that he spoke in rambling phrases and just kept saying that his wife had just had surgery He said that over and over she just had surgery she just had surgery He had told this were EMS worker that when he came home Uh from work his wife wasn't there So he began cooking a barbecue dinner Oh, which says what you don't even look in the by the way one of the floors that your wife hangs out in a lot Don't look there don't crack the door open Where everything was a mess last night Yeah, to the noise from the register. Yeah, I wonder if maybe if he just said if he's claiming he just called her Dorothy home and then she didn't answer whatever the fuck but I think I'd be a look for him I'd be worried that my spouse didn't choke on her own vomit Yes, that's one of the other things, but I he doesn't worry about that much Later on He said that he told the The EMS worker that his son went into the basement family room and returned upstairs saying mom sick Okay, um, so then Elmer told him sick. She's dead The damn kid didn't even act surprise. This is this is what he said Uh, this is what curly told the EMS worker. He said I told john sick. She's she's dead The damn kid didn't even act surprised. He didn't even cry. She wasn't sick. She was dead. There was blood all over everything That's what Elmer said You getting something better that I mean he's either He's right right How does that kid not know the difference between sick and dead? That's what I mean if he's telling the truth Yeah, John John has a lot of explaining to do sure does yeah And if he's not telling the truth he's a fucking monster who's trying to set his son up to fall for this Because that's what he's doing He's either telling the truth and saying I'm worth, you know, he's scared his son did it or he's literally going I mean she he didn't even cry kid didn't even have a rea look at me. I said yeah I'm sad shit. This is how people react. He's not even reacting Yeah, she's sick. She's dead. What are you talking about and from this scene you would not go down there and go Oh, she's sick because never have that conclusion. There's fucking blood everywhere You'd go holy shit mom exploded as what you'd say like Insane so and that's the thing that that I found strange in I was waiting to get to this in his 911 call Curly says she's my wife's dead downstairs. She stiff as a board Yeah, there's no mention of how much fucking blood is everywhere. Yeah, what would be the first thing you would notice her You know state of rigor or the fact that She's got her head is almost off and there's blood fucking everywhere like That to me she stiff as a board get on over here is not that's not enough. Yeah, that's me This is there's all he's saying is there's no there's no bringing her back. Yeah. Yeah, that's true But you also have to understand see this is another fucking thing that you have to take into place is kind of regional. Yeah, Wisconsin people are Extremely non-demonstrative. They're they're not they're the least Italian people there are okay You know what I'm saying? No, they're very calm. They're very quiet. They're not a They're not a they don't talk with their hands and act crazy. They're very reserved. Yeah or non-demonstrative if you want to be have a fucking eighth grade vocabulary so They're very much like that like they're they're I remember watching a behavior panel thing where they were talking about the Steven Avery yeah, and they were talking about him and one of the guys and the behavior panel will say and you can see like his arms are down On the side like he's keeping it in and that could be a sign of deception and the other guy went Ah, blah blah blah. He goes I got a break in here and Wisconsin. He said that's you keep your arms down by your side If you raised your hand to say something and be like oh calm down pal like What do you do hit me? Yeah, exactly. They're so like oh, I don't know. So that's part of it all so that you know Oh, she's sick. She's dead. I don't know is I'm not sure so there's yeah, he's not gonna be going crazy and whaling maybe but I don't know you might cry They said he was crying when they got there the MS he was sobbing and whaling and rambling and coherently was No, not the son of the father the son was fine. He was fine. That's weird So the guy who performed the autopsy dr. Billy Bauman here He said that um he presumed the murder was done with the steak knife near the body because the knife fit into the cut on the vertebrae The knife found beneath her right arm was described by him as Curly said they said this will be found this murder weapon and he said that's quote my favorite knife That's my favorite knife Oh You guys are gonna take that aren't you? Oh, she'll never gonna be able to cut my New York strips now fuck I'm the fuck why would he say that my favorite knife god damn it. He said that the last time he saw this knife He keeps track of it. It's like The last time he saw this knife was when he had left for the basketball game on the evening before and then at that time It was on the kitchen counter ready for just any sort of utility use because it's his favorite So he said that when he cleaned the kitchen at 220 a.m Nothing weird about that. He was certain the knife wasn't there couldn't find it Huh gone he said that he checked the kitchen area again in the morning before he left for work He said and if there was anything still out I turned the dishwasher on and went to work So he looked for the knife multiple times and couldn't find it's his favorite steak knife How many times have you ever scowards your kitchen for a particular knife? When you wake up in the middle of the night you go is my knife down there? Where is my damn knife and then the next morning before you go to work before the sun is even up you say fucking oh man I gotta find that damn steak knife That is really weird He said that now the the bowman the guy who did the autopsy said this serrated You know steak kitchen knife, right? Was quote a most inefficient weapon to slash anybody's throat It required a minimum of a dozen slash wounds to make the throat wound He sawed her fucking head off with this because it's a serrated dull Yeah, so one slash isn't gonna go in very far. It's not like a sharp knife where if you slash it's gonna go deep Yeah, this isn't going that deep so he had to saw her head off basically Till before till he finally hit vertebrae. Oh my and went oh too far That's wild that's wild Um, I don't even know what to say about the brutality it takes to do that. That's fucking insane They said that this bowman said that nearly 20 other stab wounds were found on the torso like we said He said slashes on her palms classic defense wounds that showed that she attempted to grab the blade of the knife And it had been pulled through her hand she grabbed the blame and they fucking ripped it out They estimated that she died a minimum of 10 hours before he saw her body Uh, which was he saw her body at 10 30 pm finally the this guy Uh, he said she'd been gone for at least 10 hours. So He says time of death somewhere between midnight and basically noon of That night so Physical evidence taken from the crime scene murder weapon a white handled knife of the serrated Serrated edge like we said they also analyzed a white dish towel found lying near her body Uh, and a pair of tennis shoes taken from the home that belonged to curly and samples of blood found on the hood of the family car And on the inside door knob leading from the home into the garage So somebody who ever did it went out the garage went out the garage apparently dripped it on the car and everything So the lab analyst in this once for the state crime laboratory said that Uh, they were unable to lift any finger or pom prints suitable for identification from a door knob taken on the in the white salt Okay, that particular door knob the knob where blood was found was on a door leading from the home to the garage Uh, he said the same thing was true for the steak knife that was found near there's they could get prints on it Yeah They also examined three footwear impressions that were found on the hood of the family car Somebody jumped on the car on the hood of the car which is a 1979 blue Ford LTD the fucking boat. Yeah big car They said the three impressions on the vehicle were similar and basic size and tread surface design Uh, of a pair of running shoes that belonged to curly white Okay, but he also noted that the souls of the shoes reportedly belonging to white contain no individual characteristics Such as cuts or worn areas So this guy said I cannot possibly say that the shoes made those impressions The possibility exists that other shoes of the same basic side size and tread surface design could have made those impressions Which in 1981 as we know from like Richard Ramirez there wasn't that many shoes shoe tread designs so just wasn't now it'd be like holy fuck who knows But then the back then there really wasn't that many shoe tread designs Uh, there was a waffle there was kind of the circular thing that basketball shoes used There was a certain grain for runner shoes. There wasn't that many. So they're saying that's very possible Uh, they said that uh, they also analyzed hairs found Okay, they said there was hairs found in her hand that will find Yes, uh, four hairs were found in the area around her body and were vacuumed up and they were consistent with curly's hair However, uh, they found the hairs taken from the bag When they stuffed put her in the body back the hairs they got after that they said one hair was consistent with Curly's head hair two others could not be matched with any of the wife's family who lived in the house Those are the ones that are out of the hairs had the ones in her hands Um, they said that it was not unusual to find hair of family members near at dead body obviously, you know Um, but five head hairs were found in her right hand grasping them Uh, while some were consistent with her hair one was inconsistent with any family member That's fascinating Yes, so that's interesting. They found some with her hair some consistent with curly's hair some Completely don't know who's fucking hair that is Um, it's interesting. So they said there yeah, they found Uh, footprints and blood on the hood of the park car parked in their garage Also on Dorothy sweatshirt and bra that was consistent with small blood sample taken from her body. So they said the blood matches Um, they said the blood from the inside knob of a door leading from the basement stairs to the garage was unidentifiable Hmm god damn it. I wish we had this technology for the shit now Um, like you know them yeah 1981 Uh, they see blood and go I don't know where that came from Yeah, absolutely. They also said no fingerprints But no evidence that someone had tried to wipe away any prints either. Okay. They found blood They said blood found on some toilet paper and shredded paper found in the house did not match Dorothy's blood Okay, they found blood in other areas, but that doesn't match Dorothy's blood. Okay. They found no bloody clothing in the house And they said they found no blood on the jacket or tennis shoes that they took as evidence They also said that the fingernails were tested for blood um, and uh, none was found Okay Under under elmers under elmers Nothing was found no blood on his jacket or shoes covered in blood They have to be absolutely head to toe covered in blood Um, now there's time frames that the murder could have occurred in this is where it's some good technical Fucking solve a mystery shit here. So they said even assuming some motive existed for the murder by someone other than elmer Let's say it's someone other than elmer. They're saying that um There's these different time frames the pathologist testified the murder occurs between 12. They are 2 a.m. And 12 noon on November 17 um They said the there's all these different time frames that the defense are putting up saying that they Could have happened in these time frames actually So they said examining his this is elmer's hypothesis, which you don't hear those words go together very often That an unknown intruder came into his house sometime between 2 a.m. and noon and killed his wife So they said it could have been then he said that she could have been down there sleeping We could have all left everyone left the house by 8 a.m. No one was left in the house So there's four hours left in the coroner's window anyone gonna broken a murderer in that time anybody Okay, that's what he says so that's obvious here. So um He said that uh here's the time frames between 8 a.m. and noon like I just said there's that So they said that uh she could have been dead before the children left at 8 a.m. or Even after they said the death was much a little more likely to have occurred between 2 and 6 a.m But it could have happened after 6 a.m. as well They uh d'Orathy had a hair appointment at 8 30 a.m. that day She had made the appointment herself at 4 p.m. the day before It's not like she forgot about her sons of their saying if she was alive at 8 She would have probably been up and getting ready for her hair appointment right they are whittling this time frame down fast with that That's a big one there um She had averaged two to three appointments a month at the hairdresser shops in September of 1980 Jesus Christ That's a lot of hairdressing loves her hair Wow the hairdresser testified it was Dorothy's practice to be timely for her appointments and she always got them. Yep No, she has blonde hair so she's got to keep that up. I guess that's what it is She had died it in September of 80 blonde. Mm-hmm like we were saying so um the hairdresser told Dorothy what when she made the appointment the previous day that the 17th Her it was her day off but that she would come in on my day off to do it for you She wasn't gonna miss this. No, and she said that she would prefer to do it early in the day So she could have the rest of the day off like she had planned So Dorothy would not have done fucked If your hair is person saying I'm gonna make come in on my day off for you're gonna fucking show up on time Yeah, you know the murders between two and eight They absolutely they said also when she didn't show up That she tried calling the the wife's home at 8.45 a.m. And two more times and nobody ever answered Which makes sense because she was dead and everybody else was gone So another person here Beth Meyer who's a receptionist at the dean clinic She said that on the morning of November 17th She called the wife's home between 8.30 and 9.am to set up an appointment She received no answer and she tried to telephone then Dorothy Wies's home at intervals every 45 minutes to an hour until 5 p.m. But never received an answer Uh-huh. So they said that um, you know seems like 8.am to noon would be a weird time Would about 5.am to 7.30 a.m. What about in there That's another time period. They said that neither John nor Jo-Rene heard a sound in the house during the early morning hours And we're not awakened because Elmer was out of the house They said that these the evidence strongly suggests that this murder was done in a frenzy This is a frenzy murder like I was talking about all right This is slashing an attack in and force, you know, this is a wild shit They said that um, you know 33 stab wounds 20 wounds in the upper upper part 33 on the body There was an attempt made to separate the head from the body by sawing at the vertebrae after the victim was already dead or within moments of being dead The defensive wound show was a struggle. There's blood everywhere In order for the murder to occur between 5 and 7.30 the insurer would have had to come into a strange house In a darkened and semi-darkened condition search the house for Dorothy Feel like they want to kill her Then search the house for the white handled steak knife kill her in a frenzy while she attempted to defend herself And have all this done without waking anybody else up Yeah, the the key to that is the person would have to be in a rage enough to want a murder And then they they're not showing up there without the weapon that they're going to murder with yeah You don't go in I have a rage to murder. I hope there's something there to do with That's not a real good murder. That's a bad murder and now not waking up the kids They the daughter didn't wake up from the screen in the middle of the night. So that's possible. So I don't know about that here Um, but yeah, they said there's there's that now between 230 or two and 4 30 a.m. That's the other one They said there's strong evidence here that that's the time frame she was killed John said he heard the scream never heard his mother scream like that before Pathologist said much more likely between two and six she failed to keep her hair appointment at 830 Um, they said in order for an unknown intruder to have killed Dorothy between two and 430 The intruder would have had to enter a strange house at night in a darkened condition Search the house for Dorothy Become sufficiently motivated to kill her Search the house for the white handled knife kill her in a rage of frenzy while she attempted to defend herself And have all this done without anyone in the house being aware of it. There's three other people in the house Now the problem with this is though If somebody broke in with strange house, okay, if you broke in and you were walking around you didn't have a weapon Let's say you didn't show up to murder somebody, but you showed up to Rob the place to look around Yeah, and you saw a knife sitting on the counter you might grab that just to have protection You're in somebody's house. You have no idea Yeah, yeah, let's say you said you went in the basement to see if that's probably away from people sleeping away from Maybe there's shit down there. I could steal. Let's say you went down there and you came upon Dorothy She freaked out and screamed and started hitting you and she's drunk so she's drunk And you have a knife in your hand. Yeah, and you start hacking away at her But would you Continue this assault on her That's the thing. Yeah, I guess if you're maybe if you're on a shitload of coke or something you would but otherwise Would you just stab her enough to get her off of you and run out of the house at that point probably would you or would you try to saw her head off that's That's the other part is it had to have been between then be between the early times because that's when he didn't see the knife there That's what he said too. Yeah, and so He said that he wasn't sleeping well. He said sound carried easily So he heard her throwing up and everything like that. Um, so That's the time period those are the three time periods where this is possible and those are what they're going to fight about in court here So January 82 he is arrested Oh, there's arrested two months later. They arrest him. Okay They asked the cops why did this last two months when you had a suspect since you walked in the door right and the lieutenant of the Dane County Sheriff's Department said two months isn't very long for an investigation Let's pass around here. Yeah, that's we do things from non-demonstrate We do things just pretty cool. Keep our hands down by our sides and just kind of take it as it comes over here Plus I've been drunk for the last like 45 days just not stop So We all sobered up a bit and decided that why not let's do it. It is mid-January. We've all been drunk since Christmas. So you know We've kept the party going To do yeah, he said in fact, it's a very short time. That's not true either. Oh, don't lie It's not a short time we do this show not a short time He said there's a number of Homicides in both the city and the county that are still being investigated many months after the fact Yeah, those are called where they don't have a suspect They probably didn't happen in a house with one other fucking adult person who has a reason to kill her in a history of abuse in it Those are called almost cold cases. That's what those are called. Yeah Um, he is freed on bond. Oh Yeah, he is freed on 15,000 dollars bond not even a lot my god Yep, he's been there his whole life and he's you know, they said well, he's fine. I'm sure he's not going anywhere He's allowed to use the equity in his family home to post bond Unbelievably he uses his equity. He is the jointly owned home there is Use that to satisfy the bond They said that Yeah, he's released from custody the home and adjoining lot had a total assessed value of 59,900 dollars This is 1980 and has a net equity in the property of 42,400 dollars. So he's allowed to borrow against that and 17,000 more good pull out of that. Yep. So uh in making the decision the judge Reference the in the complaint here or no when they tried to fight the His bail the prosecutor said he said this though quote. I did not work 49 years of my life to spend the rest of my life in jail Like so he doesn't want to go to jail Yeah, and the judge said well nobody wants to go to jail and they gave him bail Does sound inconvenient who does really you know what I mean So the town is a chit chat and about this boy are they talking a lot? Yeah, there's an international airport 30 minutes away. This is fucking crazy man This is big news and it became public on November 18th and people just talked about it a lot the one neighbor of them said that This is a lady who operated a book and art store on Main Street by the trolls Trollway they said we talked about we everybody talked about it a lot. There were a lot of rumors flying around They said the town's opinions based on what these reporters have gone around and talked everybody Everybody's on curly side is that right they say curly's getting railroder. He's innocent It was a strain couldn't have been anybody from this town. Jimi that's the thing. There's a lot of things We're like it couldn't have nobody from here did this. It's obviously someone drove they pulled it off the trollway and they yeah They did this Clearly Uh, they don't they're not privy to the investigation and the and the information right? It's in the paper most of it. Yeah, they're talking about everything that I just gave you was was in newspapers and everything The knife disappeared at 2 a.m. Uh, I don't know if they know that that level of detail Yeah, that's what I mean. There's so much information that really says the only person that could have done this is either him or his son Well, once we get once we get up to the trial, which is about now most of the people do know all the facts pretty much They've all come out yeah, because it came out in the preliminary is when they were fighting he was fighting to not get charged There was different things there. So Um, they said that the trial is going to be carried live by some local cable television stations Wow, that would have been awesome back then Uh, but the residents of the village here of where they live Mount Horib said they're relying on newspapers and a Madison A Madison television news reports the trial since Mount Horib doesn't yet have cable hooked up It didn't have it's 81. Yeah, it didn't have cable This is when they were first laying cable places and that was a Yeah, not a place there, but it's that's a place one of the places they get it first was in the middle of nowhere Right, because all the cable yeah, all the places that got MTV first back in the day like we're all places that were We're all home and you the middle of like Long Island out there somewhere where they're building shit and they could easily tear up the ground and lay a cable down Manhattan it took fucking till like 84 before they got cable. Yeah, I think forever 83 whatever the fuck it was because it was took a lot's expensive to dig up cities and cable shit down So they said they talked to a clerk at the ace hardware store. They're just going around town And this guy said it's been a lot of talk They said people who live outside Mount Horib have cable. They're really interested in what's happening All him cable people um the owner of the Mount Horib's radio shack store Robert Washburn Said a lot of his customers are talking about the trial too, but quote they still can't figure out if he's guilty or not Fascinating. He said quote it was common knowledge that curly threatened his wife and that she ran around a lot If there were drugs involved as you know, they were alleging it's certainly if there were drugs a lot Involved as they're alleging. It certainly didn't come from this town. Okay, so Go over this again. We know that he would you know threaten his wife and stuff she ran around drinking and carousing It was common common knowledge common knowledge, but if it did involve drugs the only thing I do know is the drugs weren't from this town Yeah That we do know we don't have that running we don't have drugs here We only have radio shack That's it um a clerk at a store selling religious effects. Yeah Said that oh yeah her son attended school with one of the children of the wife's children She said her son's friends didn't say very much about it But the view by the few comments made by customers in the store she said there was a lot of feeling that curly didn't do it Because they go oh she was out there running around could have been one of these guys. She's running around running around with The in place which is a bar they have two women bartenders that which two didn't want their names being used They said their customers were watching the white trial on television But we're quote keeping their thoughts to themselves. Oh, that's very Wisconsin Yeah Can you imagine imagine a shroud going on a bar in New York there'd be get the fuck out of you look at it and he fucking did it now your sister's ass he did it that's the fuck out of here That's amazing not less do you think huh? Wow, they're just quiet. It's not gonna judge Um, so um, yeah keeping their thoughts to themselves the younger bartenders said quote. I don't think they've got the right person Unbelievable I thought that from the start there are a lot of rumors in town about people who aren't suspected Let's just put it that way is that right so yeah There's apparently a whole other layer to this that the people in town know about that other that the cops are ignoring And that the outsiders don't know about apparently everyone in town's like we all know it was probably so and so or is this guy or that guy We're all there Yeah, the other bartender said if he had done something like that he would have done it a long time ago Like it's not like he would have waited 27 years to kill her. He's been beaten her for 20 He's been beaten her for decades and she's been doing this for a long time. Yeah, if that's probably what it's about then It's not it's a bit late. That's a bad argument. I feel like he's Right that's a terrible argue she's been cheating on him for years. He beats the shit out of her all the time Why would he do it now? Yeah, it's a very weird chicken or the egg causing effect argument that I don't understand here and then Washburn who was the guy from the radio shack he was there and he agreed as well He said that's right. He agreed with the bartender's opinion He said quote people can't comprehend how curly could kill his wife then go to work and act stable that day Yeah, that's the crazy part about murder. That's what's so Fucking wacky. That's why we all watch true crimes shit and follow news stories and trial How the fuck so let me get this straight He stabbed her 50 fucking times almost cut her head off and then just went in and supervised cheese making An hour later. He was just like oh, I don't know you might want to put a little more fucking milk in that like really Jeffery Dommer may chocolate you guys That's what's so crazy. That's what's wild about it Fuck gays he'd go in and fucking you know, give you an estimate on your construction project the next day He'd go to a jc's meeting for Christ sake Jesus One neighbor who lived near them for 20 years said he firmly supports his neighbor Okay, he said quote let's put it this way. He's not guilty. Let's put it this way. I'm out of my fucking mind Let's put it this way In Wisconsin is code for I know a bunch of shit. I'm not gonna tell you. Let me give you the succinct Version of this he's not guilty. That means let's put it this way. Yeah, is I have so much information. I'm not gonna share with you Yeah, and here's my conclusion. I've reached from this information that I can't tell you about Because it'd be gossipy and I'm from Wisconsin and we'll handle it. We got it. Don't worry. Yeah, because that's exactly what the other one said Let's let's put it this way that's about people who aren't suspected. Let's put it that way is what the bartender said this person said Let's put it this way. He's not guilty Another friend of weiss is here Laura Fiske of blue mounds said I've known him for 25 years. He's known to have a violent temper, but I don't think he's capable of crime Let's let's think about that sentence for a second generally violent temper is Criminal behavior right I mean if he didn't have a violent temper, would you think he was capable of it at what point would you think he was capable of it? Violent when it's justified James. Yeah, I would have violent plus like That's so weird. I mean, he's known to have a violent temper and all everyone knows that Elmer will throw a punch at you know problem But I don't think he'll do anything criminal Another guy here dug he's he's known them forever since he used to deliver newspapers to them since he was a kid He said I would guess he was there and had the opportunity He said since I've known the family since I was a nine-year-old kid delivering newspapers But it's a very good possibility that the cops got the wrong person You what I would guess he he could have done it in other words It's possible probably had the opportunity, but somebody else probably did it But I don't think yeah, I don't think he did it though He could have done it, but I don't think he did is the thing there. I know he's possible Another one here the owner of a craft shop in town whose mother is also a neighbor of the wife's family this town is so fucking small She said quote from day one. I just haven't heard anything about it from the few people I do hear talking about this They're just hoping he gets a fair trial She wasn't reading the newspaper because it was in every single fucking day. It was in the newspaper about this shit Something new it's a small town where someone almost had their head cut off in a fucking rec room What do you expect yeah right next to the foosball table with a stake that she's used numerous a stake night She's numerous times. No shit So uh now the criminal complaint here the first thing that that his legal team is gonna do the white says is say We can't even go to trial because the criminal complaint is defective Okay, doesn't work right. Yeah, it's defective it quotes his daughter Jackie saying that um The saying that he had threatened to kill his wife and all that right But she she says she never said that and it's a quote a material and substantial misrepresentation They have an affidavit from her saying she never said that the sister was saying I was there the whole time never heard him say that the other sister She said her parents were not together at her home that day and she didn't hear her father threaten her mother She also said that She'd been shown a draft of the 14 page criminal complaint in the case to review the accuracy of her statements and that version didn't match Uh, didn't contain the information about the threat Uh, and she said she was not shown the 10 page complaint that was filed later on That said that had that in it They said the state evidence shows that the defendant spoke to Dorothy Weiss in the past of the danger of her dying in exactly the manner that she did die The judge rejects a defense argument that someone outside of the Weiss family Um, could have been involved in that part They said the possibility is of a limited probability if the time of death is most likely to be between two and three And they said the criminal complaint is fine Uh, they also the judge also kept saying he said it was his favorite knife Yeah, that's a that's a bad quote and how would you fucking not hear the screams that woke your son up? That seems like and you were up 10 minutes later cleaning so Yeah, um, the ruling is that there is sufficient evidence to hold him for trial Um, they said that you know, they heard all the probable cause they said quote although there are undeniable problems with this prosecution in terms of Variance from police reports and witness statements. There's a lot of bad police work here. It sounds like it A lot of like they said this and then another statement. They said something different but similar There's a lot of things like that where they're finding a lot of uh uh, cops i don't know they're bumping into each other just not used to this or what it was but they're definitely not Uh, didn't do a terrific job here. Well overwhelmed little bit overwhelmed yet. They said also uh the prosecution in terms of variance from police reports and witness statements and Uh, physical evidence presented at the preliminary hearing it's the determination of this court that the state has shown probable cause to believe a felony was committed and probable cause to believe the defendant committed it The fact that he's in the house and had the opportunity means he's there's probable cause Yeah, the rest of it doesn't matter but there is a lot of stuff. It's a little weird uh the judge also said that Um, that Elmer's conduct just before the body was discovered implies an expectation of something more than a report of unsterio repairs Is there saying that his son was going down to check the stereo or some shit? So okay anyway the trial comes in They do the trial. It's nine men three women on the jury. Okay They spend a lot of the first day at the actual murder scene they go to the they go to the home to tour the site Yeah, to tour the basement to look at it to see um the prosecutors they contend that Weiss um they know they said he described himself as extremely jealous. He killed his wife in a rage Um, now there is no significant fingerprint or no evidence. There's no fingerprints. There's no blood There's no clothing the hairs are he lives in the same house. There's nothing And he's got nine men on this jury that uh likely are married also and if this shit happened to them They might react the same way That's who knows you know, I mean yeah depending on what he says happened You get some sympathy possibly, you know, you never know what you need one person to be on your side. Right. It's it So um, they said there's no sick of the court that obviously points out no significant evidence there Um, they do take Anne Erickson. Yeah, she was going to Sweden Oh And they they had to take her Shit on tape and they submitted that as her Just gonna be on vacation. She'll be in Sweden can't reach her Out of the country an evidence technician with the Dane County Sheriff's Department told jurors that the uh That afternoon he saw several hairs in Dorothy's right hand as she lay on the basement floor Uh, they photographed the crime scene and told of placing bags over her hands to prevent the hairs from falling out Well, they take her to the lab. They testified that at least six hairs were found in her right hand One of the six hairs was right by the wrist Okay, he said the others were actually in her hand and between her fingers like you were she was grabbing at someone fighting They said the significance of the hair because he is expected to come out later with the shit like that They said the expert is expected to testify which of those hairs are consistent But that doesn't matter if it's in the fucking house. It doesn't matter So they said she could have blood on her hands touch the carpet picked up in one of his hairs You know what I mean? Especially he's 49 fucking years old. He's got a hair coming out every once in a while, you know It's his house. It's his house exactly So the defense attorneys said they're gonna try to show that it's not unusual that hairs would have been on the floor of the basement And thereby transferred into the bag while the body was moved They said there was at least one hair found on her body that doesn't match hers her husband's or anyone in the family The defense will argue that that shows someone else was in the room when she was murdered Or she had a hair on her clothes from being out that night at the bar and Touched it with her bloody hand hugged her and anything. Yeah, anything like that. So The defense here said in their opening statement that they would show that drugs Are probably the factor in the death of Dorothy here. They said the dead woman admitted to at least one person that she was involved with quote Marijuana and Fedamines and cocaine. Oh So that's that's more than you expect she's not just smoking a joint out behind the fucking Joe bar Yeah, that's dabble in yeah, she's get it's 81. I mean I get 81 coke is everywhere I mean, it's the biggest thing in the world, but you know, you got to want it to get it here You know, they mean yeah meth too. Yeah, so I mean it probably pills that probably I'm fed I mean pills I bet back then so They said that the um The state's case is based on entirely circumstantial evidence But uh, and the prosecution said that's not unusual in a first-degree murder case. Sometimes it's all you have So the defense and support of the hypothesis that an unknown intruder murdered Dorothy Elmer and his team here emphasize that no significant evidence implicates him Which is true Further, he argues that certain pieces of physical evidence affirmatively indicate the presence of an unknown intruder He says that uh, no nothing indicates him the state found no fingerprint or fingernail scrapings and criminating him No blood stains or spots were found on the person on his person or clothing um there But the prosecution says that he had ample time to clean himself up at his home or his workplace and could have destroyed incriminating items of clothing that he might have been wearing you could have taken them out of the house tossed him in a dumpster by his job who knows The record also says that um That doesn't indicate what if any bed clothes he was wearing when he went to bed that night If there were clothes any clothes to destroy the cheese factory maintained an incinerator which burned almost constantly And was readily accessible Right near where he parked his car. Oh my gosh Then he could have got out with the bloody clothes tossed him in the incinerator on the way into work and let him hunched in Yeah, that's it done But they'd have no proof of this. I don't have him on camera doing this or anything like that They point to other pieces of evidence that this is uh the defense's case for an unknown intruder They argued that they also found a bloody doorknob leading to the basement from the garage blood analysis determined that the blood of the doorknob Was of human origin but of an unidentified person Not belonging to Elmer or Dorothy Although a reader might infer from this statement that the blood of the doorknob was from someone other than from then Dorothy They said actually an unidentified person the record indicates the lab technician was unable to type the blood at all due to Some sort of environmental conditions. So we don't know whose blood that was in actuality They tried to argue see it's an unknown person. They said they're not so fast um They said um Also it was human origin. It could have been anyone's including those two the doorknob is in question there Uh was leading from the basement to the garage not from the garage to the basement. They said um He also argues in support of the unknown intruder hypothesis that hairs were retrieved from her right hand and from the coroner's body bag Two hairs from the body bag one hair from the victim's hand or not identifiable as being from the defend victim defendant Or either the children leaving at home So they said the prosecution said hairs from the victim's right hand of the six hairs stuck to the hand of Dorothy Weiss from blood one hair was not consistent with that of the defendant or Dorothy One hair was not suitable for comparison Four hairs were similar to the doorkies and uh that's in type and characteristics of the DNA So frustrating But there is a hair that doesn't belong to who god knows who So hairs from the coroner's body bag of the five hairs obtained from the body bag the state crime lab analysis Uh testified that one hair was similar to his hair two hair similar to hers Same basic thing there they said that it's highly likely that if you find hair from people living within that household And anyone else that would have visited the house or coming contact with her Thus a hair from a person who was not a member of the family was found stuck to her hand and the two of the hairs fell So they said no evidence showed that the only family that only the family used this recreation room The victim was lying on the floor in a pool of blood Any hairs previously left on the floor by visitors to the home could easily have attached themselves to her bloodied clothing or hand this evidence points The defendant says this points to the unknown intruder theory and they say it makes it actually just more cloudy So given this evidence and the inferences drawn from this uh jealous nature of the defendant here fights between them frequently fights after her drinking and coming back in the evenings obviously as well um All this type of shit so Dorothy shrink testifies here Dr. Hanne he says she was being treated for emotional problems um Now Elmer's gonna say that nothing Dorothy said at this time should even be led into court Not because of any privilege, but because Dorothy was not reliable because she was being treated for emotional problems So uh, anything she's Anything she said to the shrink You know, could just been off the top of her head. Yeah They said that uh Also, they claim that Dr. Hanne used hypnosis as part of his treatment to of her And thus the statements may have been produced while under the influence of a hypnotic state Yeah, which would make them not admissible So They said the evidence was actually evidence of bad character and was on a unreliable As a matter of law they're saying so you can't just say he was a bad guy because she told the shrink that So uh, they said Dorothy was not the shrink said Dorothy was not psychotic or delusional But was suffering from an anxiety disorder and they said she was always touched in touch with reality Secondly, there was no evidence that she was ever in a hypnotic state when these evidence when these statements were made They said the doctor testified that Dorothy had 10 sessions with him But he used a formal procedure to put her in a hypnotic state only once during their first session The statements that issue were made during the June session and no hypnosis was used at that time So okay, and that's it too because that your psychiatrist you say some shit You can say anything. Oh god and and it's and it can be something that just happened and you are charged up about it And it's really nothing that's a big deal, but yeah, I say you may sound really inflammatory Absolutely Yeah, that's a good point sometimes. I mean, yeah, that's a good way to put it. So He said that the Also the threat there's a possible threat here to exclude evidence um, he wants it to be if you don't clean up your act you may wind up with your throat slit He doesn't want that in no, that would be terrible Yeah, that's not good Um, but he's if it is in he's gonna say that's because criminal drug dealers She was associating with and all that shit. So um, they did say the court acknowledged that a strong argument could be made that this statement was made in the context of her conduct And who she's hanging around with but they ruled it admissible anyway Yeah, they said the jury can decide what they feel like he how he meant it The trial court found the testimony was relevant because of the fact that such a highly coincidental circumstance That you know, that's the fact she met her death how she met her death. So They said all of that um So the defendant's son-in-law here. We're talking about Lester um, Jackie's husband He said he heard Elmer tell his wife that she should clean up her act and watch the crowd she hung around with or she would find her Sl- her throat slit He said he didn't take this to be a statement or to be a threat by Elmer. He said because he was there when she said it He said I didn't take that as a threat that he would cut her throat I took it as someone's gonna cut your throat out there. I'm not careful. You're hanging out They said that's how I took it. He's really on Elmer side man Um, an officer who interrogated curly Elmer here said that he asked Elmer if he had ever threatened his wife And he admitted that he had and volunteered that he told her she'd find his throat her throat slit and all that shit So um, there's that now in the closing arguments District attorney John Burr noted that Curly could have burned his bloody clothing at his job in the incinerator and all that type of shit They said an intruder bent on hunting or hurting or punishing her or collecting a drug debt Would enter the house go to the kitchen pick up a dull and inefficient knife and search and find her In the basement and then kill her as improbable right which is fair So Nine men three women Jerry comes back with a verdict of what do you think jimmy guilty? Oh, they got him a first degree murder. Oh, that's questionable Yeah, that's that's an evidence that's some Wisconsin evidence The that's some drunken that's some my point point three five BAC evidence They have they're they literally have no evidence at all I mean you can circumstantial evidence convicts most people. There's they don't have physical evidence Now there's more physical evidence because they have easy or DNA swabs and shit But for years and years physical evidence really didn't mean that much in the case. It's all circumstantial It's not a great case, but they don't even have like oh, I saw my dad go into the basement at two a Even if just john had saw his dad just go in there at two a.m Then I go okay, at least they have Him being put with her in the same room at the same time They don't have that and I realize that's impossible, but yeah, even with that I don't like that I want no I saw my dad come out of their covered in blood. I need that That's yeah, that would help but this is tough, but at the same time If he just did a half decent job got rid of the fucking Got rid of his bloody clothes and cleaned up a little bit and didn't leave bloody footprints all the way back to his bedroom As long as he didn't do that it'd be really hard to have any evidence on yeah And they did such a fucking bad job botching the physical evidence. I feel like that I don't know what you'd even do here as a jury. I don't know what I would say here I really don't I don't know what I would do What the what the prosecution has to has to give is that he put like a change of clothes in the In the garage that's the only explanation That that's what I mean something like that or he went out there to strip his bloody clothes off Maybe through them on top of his car for a second. That's how they got put a shoes up there Right, but there's no but there was no there was no blood on his shoes though right so if he was what I don't understand Unless he got rid of the shoes that he wore in there That's what I mean if I'm a juror I'm thinking he probably did it Yeah, but I don't have the evidence to convince this person of that you know what I mean like I did I think he did it and I think he's skating but I would feel That little bit would be like oh do you want to put someone in jail forever for that? I don't know if there's really any evidence here police feels like they need three or four months to do this not to Yet they need a couple more months. So he's guilty sentencing comes around you sir May fuck off Life in prison with for all that's the mandatory so life with So yeah, he appeals obviously He said the evidence in the case is entirely circumstantial in order for the circumstantial evidence to meet the demanding beyond a reasonable doubt standard The evidence must be sufficiently strong to exclude to a moral certainty every reasonable hypothesis of innocence He argues that there's a reasonable hypothesis that supports his innocence and the hypothesis is that someone else killed his wife between the hours of 2 a.m And 12 noon Because you could say well, yeah, she blew off her hair appointment She normally doesn't but she was also throwing up at one 30 in the morning So maybe she overslept throw it someone came in at 10 and killed her That's The coroner said at you know, so they don't know They said there's no suggestion in the record or in his argument that the someone else may have been the children John or Jo-Reen The someone else suggested by him would have had to have been an unknown intruder even though he said my son Thought she was sick even though there's blood everywhere and you know Yeah, I tried to pin it on him tried to pin it on him at that point Um, so they said the he implies that Dorothy was involved with the disreputable drug dealers and suggests that as a motive for a murder That could have been it Uh, they said whatever the motive the evidence strongly suggests in a jury could reasonably conclude that if there was an unknown Insurer he became motivated to kill Dorothy only after he entered the home It cannot be seriously argued that an unknown intruder came into the house prepared to kill a person bent on murder would have come better prepared Yeah, and certainly wouldn't have depended on adulcerated knife that was on a countertop to accomplish his plan murder and how much how many drugs is a rural Housewife doing that they're willing to kill her over how how much she could she out? How could she out? How deep in debt could she be to who? Do jazella blanco is fucking I mean who does she owe money to in rural Wisconsin? How much partying is she another Norwegian guy like yeah So um Yeah, they said that um His hypothesis fails to demonstrate that drugs would have motivated an intruder to kill her after he entered the home The extent if any of her drug use or involvement with drug dealers was never Uh, like Conclusively proven basically They said that the uh couldn't get conclusively out of my mouth Even if his statement with respect to a baggie of marijuana and some pills missing from her purse is true Because he tells the cops that she had some pills and weed in her purse that she'd keep in there all its time And they were gone So the intruder must have taken her pills and weed It cannot be seriously suggested that the desire to take these items prompted this murder particularly in the manner in which it was carried out Even assuming a motive other than one related to drugs existed for the killing of the victim Uh, jury could reasonably find that it's unreasonable to believe that an unknown intruder would have entered the white home without a plan for murder and use that shit Now there's also a Jurer question here Jurer Brascha is the name here was the four person of the jury turns out he wasn't a resident of the county Oh, what the fuck you can't do that Um, yeah, so he alleged they alleged that Brascha concealed that he was not a resident of the county at the time of the trial And failed to reveal his employment Connection with the division of corrections. He works at walk on prison Can't do that The defendant uh states that the defense council would have moved to strike Brascha for cause had those facts been known And would have exercised a preemptory strike to remove him from the jury Had that motion been denied they said we would definitely have would have gotten him off of there They they argue that the jury selection process was tainted by Brascha's failure to disclose his information and thus he was just denied Elmer was denied his constitutional rights to do process Um, so they said an evidentiary hearing was set in this whole thing. Uh, they found Brascha received a questionnaire Uh, jury questionnaire in January of 82 and um Brascha was living with his mother in Madison in Dame County at the time he completed and returned the questionnaire The form inquired about the jurors' Parentage and also asked whether he's married single divorced or widowed He's divorced, but he marked the box that indicated he was single Who cares? What's the same thing? Well, I guess not if it's if it's a case that has to do with a man His wife. Yeah, that's important actually He felt it was the same thing because I am single and ready to mingle ready to mingle That's what he felt and he didn't realize that that divorce but not feeling it yeah divorce not pay immersion He drew a line through the question which asked about the ages of his children even though he had a nine year old son You have to know who the jurors are. That's the thing. Um, shortly at the lawyers due to know who to strike Shortly after returning his questionnaire, he moved from Madison and Dane County to beaver dam in Dodge County As part of the movie changes employment and took a job as an electrician at the WAPON Correctional institution So that was all after he filled out the questionnaire. So Subsequently he was approved and qualified to serve as a juror and summed into appear He was not asked nor did he tell anyone that he had moved from the county or changed his employment Since he completed the juror questionnaire because there was only two months before right you got the questionnaire He went asked why he checked the box indicating why he was single rather than divorced He said not why he was single but that he was single well. I'm single because I'm just unemotionally. I'm emotionally unavailable I'm too non-demonstrative. Well, that means this He said uh, Braisha indicated he considered himself single as opposed to divorced I don't know why you would consider that if divorced as an option in your divorce you're divorced I identify as single. I'm sorry Sorry Braisha explained his failure to reveal the age of his son by stating my prior life as long as it is legal and lawful is nobody's business well When you're filling out a juror questionnaire that is under penalty of you're you're supposed to be honest It's on there you have to be it's like You're it's like an affidavit kind of a thing but my child is a minor and I want nobody to know anything about him The court yeah, the state knows he's existed. Um, so he was then asked whether or the jurors were asked whether any jurors were acquainted with law enforcement personnel He did not respond even though he was working at a fucking maximum security prison Wow Um, and had dally contact with prison guards and had met with police officers on several occasions concerning an allegation that he was involved in serious criminal activity He was under investigation for a while This guy's a giant pain in the ass. He's the jury foreman unbelievable Braisha also failed to respond when the court asked whether any jurors were acquainted with the district attorney's office Braisha Braisha did however have contact with the district attorney's office because of a problem with his child support payments So which they didn't even know he had a fucking kid That would open up a whole other The whole other fucking bag of worms He identified or he testified Braisha that he failed to respond to the court's question about his acquaintance with law enforcement officers Because he did not consider prison guards to be law enforcement personnel They are saying laws man, and they're they're literally the same thing prison guards in most states can arrest people outside of prison Is that right and I know in New York state they did yeah, there's a man. I know that yeah, they're They're officers so they just work inside of a prison instead of on the street So they he also said that he thought he had contact with a police officer because he thought the word acquaintant Aquainted meant more than having talked just talked and hung out with someone This guy is a fucking menace He gave a similar response when asked about why he felt indicate that he was acquainted with members of the district attorney's office He also testified that he did not know the individual he had contact with regarding the child support matter was from the district attorney's office Oh So in a unanimous ruling yeah, the court of appeals reverses the convictions because this is crazy Overturn it because this guy's a complete asshole. What's none of their business? You're a joke you're the foreman sir. You're the holy shit. You sat in a box. Oh, yeah, it's everybody. It's all their business It's called the Constitution Yeah, you're a matter you son of a bitch and you're a skirt Good you're fucking this all up. You're just costing us money now. Yeah, so in reversing this the court of appeals cited the closeness of the case Meaning it was a it was a squeak or anyway and the fact that the jury foreman failed to disclose all this other shit here So the three judge court said that he deserved a new trial in the instance an interest of justice The circumstances convince us that justice probably has miscarried It's a weird way to put it Yeah has miscarried It's been aboard and it's been aboard it just it's bleed It's played and he should order and we should order a new trial So he says that he expects that he'll face a murder trial Um there and so now is he getting out That's a good question his lawyer said he should be released from jail on bail awaiting a new trial. Yeah, so if that's overturned He said he had one before he said it should just be the bail bail application the same bail he had before right why not They said no hearing date was set But he asked for the same amount of bail 15,000 dollar property bond They said well the property which secured that bond has since been sold other property recently appraised and excess of $50,000 is available and owned outright by him So they said why not he also noted that he made all of his court appearance as well as case was pending Has no other criminal record except for that muffler issue. They didn't mention that in court, but we know about it And lived in the area for 27 years never going anywhere. So They rule that the state has a week to be to respond to this request for bail and figure it out So finally um they a parole board Uh says that the court needs to decide whether he gets out or not So he is finally freed on bail in august of 84 Oh boy After the uh After all this so the state appeals the appeal Maybe we can get out of this without having another trial because they know another trial They don't have a lot of evidence. They just don't yeah So another trial if that statement that that judge didn't let in from the daughter doesn't get in that might be the whole case You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah So uh the court of appeals finding no merit in any of the defendant's claims of error Nevertheless granted him a new trial. This is a the ruling from this next appeal in the interest of justice Uh the court of appeals determined that justice had miscarried in the proceedings below Um, so they said the likelihood of bracia would have been excused or struck from the jury had more candid Had he more candidly answered the questions and the closeness of the case they said um The state argues that the court of appeals error does a matter of law when it grants it a new trial So he shouldn't be let out but he is so new trial Uh, they the supreme court. This is the state supreme court Reverses the lower courts decision for a new trial Wow Uh, it was ordered a year ago the supreme court overturns the appeals court decision that he was entitled to a new trial They said we find that the circumstantial evidence in this case was strong enough to exclude to a moral certainty every reasonable hypothesis of the defendant's innocence I can't quite go that far. Oh, I can't go that far Um, yeah, that's what they said. It was a 32 page ruling to say that Lock it back up Lock they took him back to back to prison Um, yep, um, and they even said quote Bracia's attitude as an this is the juror as expressed by his acts and words Is um compatible with that of a juror's earnest earnestness to do his duty So he's that right. Yeah, they said it allows um, yeah, there's a there is a somebody uh, dissenting opinion there that says because of jurors answers in a close case kept knowledge from the defendant Which would have prompted a preemptory strike and because we infer the jurors' attitude was inconsistent with his duties We prevent a probable miscarriage of justice by ordering a new trial by a new jury That's what the first court said and they go we don't think so so unreal June of 85 he's taken back to prison. Yeah back to prison with you. That's fucking why start live life with Pearl yep 1986 May 16th 1986 he's trying to get pardoned Really? Yes That's this is from the Wisconsin State Journal a possible pardon for Elmer Weiss of Mount Horib will be considered next week at the prison Where he's serving life sentence the poor the pardon advisory board will hear Weiss's case and make a recommendation to the governor who makes the final decision Oh boy in his application for a pardon He continues to emphasize that he did not commit the crime quote I am innocent of the charge that the state has convicted me of my children and friends believe in me He says he wants to earn money to be able to hire people to investigate his wife's murder And he wants to be with his children and grandchildren because my wife was taken from our lives. Oh, don't say don't say I want to get out there find the real killer And he just he I think oh Jay read this case and was like you know what I can get away with this shit Holy shit If he was only famous he get a got away with it is what oh Jay said he should have been a naked gun movies All right His application has been endorsed in 64 letters from friends relatives and co-workers Who describe him as a productive hardworking non-violent citizen except for the times they all know he beat the shit out of his wife So everybody says he's got a violent temper Violent temper and beats his wife, but you know other than that petition bearing 391 signatures has been filed on his behalf Not bad One person wrote society friends and family have nothing to fear fear from Elmer curly vice One let they got one letter opposing the pardon one after all that So the board makes recommendations to the governor and then it's up to the governor for sure But whatever if they are pardon they get regained full civil rights and all that kind of shit And the governor has not granted any full pardons to people still in prison so far She's been in office Governor also had governor also has the power to grant a conditional pardon Reduce the criminal sentence or delay its starting date so you can pretty much do it every once here So um The pardon board they say a pardon request from Elmer curly Wice of Mount Horib received a negative recommendation from the governor's advisory board So that's not good Yes, so he goes back in prison the whole community since then for 20 years after argued about whether they thought he was guilty or not And as you can tell by the letters and everything it became a whole thing where the whole town just decided He was not guilty and he got railroad and they all decided to get on his side Unbelievable, it's crazy eventually he does get out of prison really I don't know exactly when but I do know he's out on April 20th 2019 because he dies I know he's out then Because there's a picture of him in there and he's an old man and he's not in a prison He's in like a recliner in some living room So he's definitely has been out and he dies at age 87 at the VA hospital in Madison, Wisconsin And there will be no services per his request and that's all All his obituary was Curly died no services per his request cremated fuck off. That's it. That's all the fucking unreal All you're gonna get out of him there. So curly is dead He definitely went to prison the whole town was pissed off. This is what small town murders all about right This happened everybody gossiped. They all knew both people and all did he do it I don't think he did it old. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, fucking curly couldn't have done it I don't know boy. I'll tell you what he used to beat on that wife all the time Yeah, but she's running around drinking with other fellers all the time. Yeah, I know, but damn that curly He sure is a fine, you know, nice guy. I played poker with him back in 73 That's what you get. This is small town murder the sequel to this is his twin brother butch did it That's it totally yeah And you get cops that don't handle these type of murder scenes as much as they as other places So they fuck up physical evidence. They think that they got it and they don't Technology's shit so they have no idea what they're looking at that's the other thing Yeah, the physical evidence if they don't gather it properly Even if they do gather it properly properly, they don't have a lot they can really do with it Other than go this blood is the same type as her or him and these hairs are similar to this person's head So I think I think he did it and he benefited from the lack of opportunity of the of anybody to properly investigate it That's what I think that's what I absolutely think happened. I think he did it and the jury Should not have convicted him. I think he did it and he's good. Yeah, it's one of those. It's a Scott Peterson Yeah, I think he did it. I don't think they had enough evidence to convict them The fridge James, but they did say what was his pizza like did he have a bite taken out of that pizza? What does his sock drawer look like we could have figured this all out? So There you go. That is Mount Harib, Wisconsin and Quite a fucking tale of just like I said This is the small town murder quintessential small town murder right here type of shit. So it's delicious It's like a my it's like a sharp cheddar Just delicious like a like a nice colby so Then cracker with a nice. Oh, you can't beat that you can't beat little piece of sausage on there too some kind of salami or something. Oh man now you're talking so That's Mount Harib, Wisconsin a cheese maker possibly murdering is what could it get anymore Wisconsin than that? So for being drunk a cheese maker kills his wife because she's too drunk In the in the rec room basement. There's a couldn't be anymore. Wisconsin He got drunk one too many times he'd had enough Well, he's had enough so holy shit boy. That's crazy if you enjoyed that show and you want to tell the world about it And most of all if you want to help us out by doing that Please do that get on whatever wrap you're listening to and give us five stars because it helps a lot those reviews help a Fuckload they help drive you up the chart and help people notice you so thanks for everyone who's done it And if you haven't please do that and speaking of reviews we have a new show coming out. Yeah called your stupid reviews Stupid opinions. I just got reviews in the head your stupid opinions. Yes, I definitely Where we are gonna talk about it's gonna be an hour long show every Monday morning where we find reviews from every corner of the internet About every weird thing you could think of and listen to people complain about weird shit and make fun of them for it It's gonna be absolute gold. We can't wait. We've done it on patreon before and it's one of the everybody's favorite So can't wait to your stupid opinions check that out also speaking of that you want to go over to patreon right patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of the bonus stuff Anybody five dollars a month or above? A cup of coffee less than a cup of coffee. You're gonna get four new bonus episodes sometimes six either way every other week You get two new episodes. There's a couple hundred back Back episodes of their binge for bonus stuff. That's you know not available than anybody publicly and This week, which you're gonna get for crime in sports, which has nothing to do with sports this week and you'll get it We're gonna talk about stairway to start them Which is a public access show that ran in New York from the late 70s to the early 90s where people come on and sing And it's like a talent show an amateur talent show not a contest Which is hey, take a look at this people singing and dancing and doing the worst stand-up comedy anyone's ever heard It's amazing stuff It's so while we'll play some clips of people singing terrible cover songs. It's incredible We're gonna have so much fun with this is a just a let's have a fun time Then for small town murder we're gonna do one of our favorites one of everyone's favorites the prisoner dating game is back Yeah, buddy prisoner dating game again, and I'm gonna pick out four bachelors and four bachelors that only have one thing in common That is that they are all currently incarcerated For violent felonies by the way as well. This is the violent felon addition Nobody who had three bags and fucking coke on him or some bullshit like that. No, no You had to do something bad end up in here. Jimmy's gonna pick a male and a female out Solly on their Pitch that they give on their dating website. I'm so and so and I do this and that he's gonna pick somebody out that he thinks sounds like a nice person Maybe they've been put in prison wrongly We don't know and then he's gonna find out who he picks at the end and it's hilarious and more importantly what they did to end up in there And it's always fucking hilarious. Check that out watch Jimmy pick the wrong person as always The prisoner dating game that is patreon.com slash crime and sports This is if you're thinking about signing up and you know the fence This is the time to do it for prisoner dating game time trust us And there's so much more to catch up on you'll be hooked So thank you so much for doing that Head over to shut up and give me murder dot com get tickets for live shows. Oh yeah merch too tons of merch up Yeah, new stuff up all the time and tickets for live shows We are not going to we were expanding our salt lake shows It sold out in like six hours. So yeah, we were putting it in a bigger venue that had more than twice as many seats But the way the seats are They couldn't guarantee that people who had Different quality seats would get those good seats or would they be back there right? And it was very confusing and would have been a huge pain in the ass for everyone involved and some people wouldn't have been happy So we said you know what salt lake is sold out fuck it We're keeping this venue. It's a nice venue. So we're keeping this so Everything is sold out till august right now all the shows San Diego Denver Salt Lake all these shows sold out The only thing right now you can get Chicago august to 12. It's gonna be our biggest show ever so make your way to Chicago I believe many apples the next night sold out right And then there's some tickets available for Atlanta Dallas Charlotte DC and Philly. Yeah That's what's available everything else Boston sold out. They're selling out fast Get your goddamn tickets if you want to see us this year I'm telling you right now in Chicago especially you get your tickets right now So thank you so much for doing that Shut up and give me murder calm is where you do all of that shit And you definitely want to as well Shut up and give me murder calm go there live show social media you want to do as well In social media follow us there. We are at small town murder on Instagram at I don't know. They're we're on there You'll find us find us Ghost you'll we're there where you can't miss us around we'll check that out So do that follow us and Hopefully if you're a patron and all that then you're gonna get a shout out. Yeah, those shout outs happen right now Jimmy please give me the name of the people who would never ever ever put us in a wood panel basement and stab us 55 times with a dull serrated steak knife. Please Jimmy hit me with that list right now this week's executive producers are Simon shed happy birthday Happy birthday Simon you English Canadian so let you Liz Nelson just became a me Congratulations. That's a brand new grandchild Gratiful. I love that Kathy Lang is coming to the Denver show I will see you there happy mother's day Kathy. It's a mother's day. It's all the mothers out there. Yeah, thank you so much I'll see you there Alexandra Alexander CPLA CPLA and Klay I'm getting made to make one oh Congratulations, a little byzone Found love you sons of bitches Karen Lewis in anorundal Said hello and thank you and we were right when nothing was wrong Thank you good. That makes us feel better now the producers this week are rabbi small which is fresh trim nose hairs That's a nice day. You get to breathe clean Oh terrific get all that filthy air in there that the nose hairs filtered Brandy Huntley Peyton Meadows Anna and a more marine ponderosa, you know, she is that Check for us. It's always sunny right? That was always sunny. Yeah, I'm Ponderosa. What's uh? Didn't you perform with that lady? What's her name? Uh, uh, oh Marylyn Rice. Yes. Yeah. Oh, she's She's awesome lady. Yeah, real cool. She's 24 and on shit. Yeah, but Marine she does the best. That's Oh, she's amazing. No, she does. Yeah, she no, she does um the slug um what's her name? Oh, it's not marine is it? It's not marina marina marina is the one that lots of fucked anise all the time. Yeah, yeah, the She's No, no more. Reena's no. Yeah, more. Reena's the one that she he married, isn't it? Yeah. Yes, right? Yes High school girlfriend or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's what it was. And then okay, sorry Marylyn's the slug. You're right. We figured it out. Janicell Scott Anastasia. Uh, no at atnazio. All right. Dr. Seymour Kudr, OBGYN Texas Steve Chanel Megan showaker showeaker uh, Mabel H. Samantha Hall patty Cole Jordan from fruzenkin Lance Lunsford Michael McCann Rianne Rianne McGregor uh, Kelligan, Calligan Wilson, Crystal P. Stephen would know last name your wafu is trash Uh, Jasmine you got a Madison Vaughn Greg Nacktreeb Charles Allen Burnside Zach Mills c- Kaylee Kaylee Copersky Uh, Katie would know last name obito gruchin Zakuskas Zakus Zoukus I don't know. Jill Roveson Sid Matt 14 Jessica Hudson Ashley Nott Stewart Hill Carly Kelly Carly Boyd Katie Edwards Tyson Garrison James Apuzzo gig Gabriel V Victoria Luca Dany Danny Danny Carbano Uh, Joy Nicholson Tiffany would know last name Gregory Smith Leanne M Liz with no last name but also a question mark Becky Thuma Boocher Mark Fisher Trace McDonnell Jordan would know last name Dory Greenaway Daniel Masek a magic ma Simon Pyroch Pyric Craig I got a small loan Cozara he got a small loan not a mortgage just a very small loan Joe Wo Maxson Sandra Conte Conte rato uh, dead beer or something Got shoes on the credit card Denny McIntyre Sandra Hedgerman Hedgerman Hedgerman Hedgerman Hedgerman Uh, Valentine valentine valentine Valentine Garcia valentine valentine Hmm. All right. I'm and a client Gilmore can I can I'm Bradley Will Palmer Plummer uh Talos Frank's Talos Uh, Gabrielle get Gabrielle Johnson Cameron Doug trim Tim Doug Tim Doug get some trim get that trim John Doug let's do WNP EVJ Kelly Kelly Carman uh Norma Norma Jean Uh, and uh, how Ann Serelle and Serelle ma Mohammed ma Mohammed I know what Mohammed it Kate Leibler uh, Cassandra Brooks Jane Gugante Gugante Gugante Gugante Gugante uh, there's no one you can say it's an it's an eye on the end uh, Debbie Devam Debbie McClarnan Cali living 805 Michelle Pope Audrey Tushet Tushet maybe Ross Jenkins Miranda Lynn Kerry Netherton Nicole Colter Joseph Karanza Andy Redman Redmond uh, Beth Heyday uh Meg Megan Kleinfelder Daniel Crowder Serewood, no last name Kerry McBride Deanna Dina Dina Dyer Christina Hatfield Mario Porier Sue Thompson Becky with no last name Brady Brady Eilers Kim van Kirk uh, John Aaron John what that's Aaron Jimmy uh, Pedest Grant Clark Aaron Herford uh Sean Seanathan Seanathan and Joshua Bri Bri Elyette maybe Bri Elyette Adam Gibson Mariah Shipley I think yep Sabrina Halbrook Benjamin Scott Jolene with no last name Dan Nicholson Linda Galentine Uh, and and Kozik Bridget lavish lavish Pete Gribis miss SOD uh, we'll see what's this 22 Kelly ketchup 721 Andy with no last name we got ketchup in there Matthew Dinter love catcher dinter man Rex uh, remix remix bar remix a bar nine Jonathan Mackie Mike Watson Kimmoreland Atlanta Hall Walters Strickland sexy Sahara. Oh boy uh James Cantrell William can't Uh, Tito's time Jimmy he can I believe in you William you can do it Okay Ashley Anderson Julie Hall Laura Austin Flash McGee reanna reanna Lovelace Jordan with no last name Nate Lonsky Grant silver Andrew Young Nikki West Chelsea Ockfish Yep, uh Gary Pickeren Matthew Layton late maybe Darcy Jolene UC Woods epoxy and supply you may want to check on them Brandon if you need a box or supply Brand supplies for Brandon Sneed and Tillesca Tillesca your tillest Jor Uh, a Raphael parra Megan Beale's Andrew pace Bridget Maloney Thomas lead better brand maze Brad maze SP no name at all just essence a peep grace of bass Jonathan Paulson Jane and Rose no last name for either Isn't that terrific grace of base that's the best name so far Awesome Johnny kick a kick a for uh Steve Ripple Laura Lewis Gabrielle Armstrong Anthony Volan Natalie Baker AZ native hey How about that uh Matty Gibbon sorry about it. It's hot there Robin and Michael C Shelley Gerald uh Jarell maybe Jessica Queen Kelly Morris Rock Trotter Wilson fields Brianna Oh Brianna Brenna Brenna Miles Erica Graves general Janelle Janelle not general Janelle Janelle Jenner Strow that sounds great. I general Perfect Casey Grayville Ben Bicknell Madison Ren mentally ill Emily Samseys, uh Kristen would know last name Jonathan Paul no that's Justin Justin Polcker and Oliver Patrons thank you so much. Thank you so much everybody For all that you do for us. We are blown away by your support. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you 20 times over Overwhelming everybody small town Wisconsin police force. Thank you so much like a police force with fucking someone some poor woman's head almost chopped off So keep doing that keep coming back and seeing us you want to find us on social media individually very easy to do that just go to shotup and give me murder.com links are there to everything Come back and keep seeing us and until next week everybody it's been our pleasure. No Hey, prime members you can listen to small town murder early and add free on Amazon music Download the Amazon music app today or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts Before you go tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey