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Hey, Prime members, you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the app today. This is actually happening is a podcast that features extraordinary true stories of life-changing events told by the people who live them. In a special five-part series called Point Blank, this is actually happening Shedza Light on the forgotten spree killings of Rancho Tejema. Follow this is actually happening wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, weirdos, it's me, it's Elena, what's going on? How's your day? I hope it's awesome. That's all I wanted to say. No, I'm just kidding. This is a message because I think a couple of episodes ago, we talked about how we are going back to the OG way of doing things. We're doing two episodes a week to big old, honk and delicious juicy episodes with one listener tale a month, just as a little cherry, little glitter on top of a crazy month. We're going to keep doing that, but I think we were also debating what days would be best for this new two episode of week cadence because we figured from Wednesday to Monday is a long wait for us and for you too much. We'd all be sad. We don't want that. We finally came up with a good cadence. We're going to drop episodes on Monday and Thursday from here on out. Monday's Thursday's. That's when they'll come out on Monday plus. One week later, you will get them Monday and Thursday for everybody else. That's what we're going to do. You deserve consistency. We want to give it to you. I know we didn't do that in the first three years. We were like, will you nilly, whenever you get episodes, here it is, but we're in that consistency train and we want to stay on that. I think this is going to work for everybody. It just feels better. We don't want that big chunk of time between episodes. You don't need there. Yeah. That's what we're going to do. Thursday's, new episodes. We're excited about it. It lets us really put more time and effort into these episodes, which is what they deserve and what you deserve. We fucking love you. I can't wait to see you every Monday and Thursday. I know I won't see you. I realize that. I won't even hear you. It feels like I will. You will hear me. We're all in this together. We're best friends. Thanks, guys. Monday's Thursday's. Woo-woo! Hey, weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Anna. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. It is. We're just coming off of a little celebratory moment. Yeah. We got to see Obituary last night live in Somerville. And Somerville kids. And we got to meet some of our fucking podcast babies. It was beautiful. It was elegant. You probably saw a picture. It looks like the last supper, but awesome. It does look like the last supper, but better. But awesome. Because there is no grudas. Oh, the Ash's microphone is literally attempting to assault her. It's falling off of the table. Mikey, too, the rescue. Please. He's going to fix it. Oh, all right. We're back in better than ever. And Elena's got a correction. It's also it's Judas. I know it's Judas Brutus as the Caesar one. You know, Judas Brutus, they're all betraying people. Yeah. I know. I know Caesar dressing. Am I right? Yeah. That's my hot take. That's my hot take. Today, love. I love Caesar dressing, as long as it's not too fishy. Yeah, that's fucking foul. Sometimes she gets one that's like, oh, that's a lot of anchovy. Oh, my gosh. I was going to say, do you know why? I wanted to tell you something. It's really hard to tell you something that you don't already know. That you don't already know. It's a lot of souls coming out today. I am. We are both on like three hours of sleep. Yeah. Because we got to party hardy with our fucking friends. Yeah, it was wild. It's like I got to be an adult and go out. And by party hardy, I mean, Alena ordered a Shirley Temple. Just like a straight up Shirley Temple. You know, yeah, nothing added to it. And it was great. I'm happy about that. You know what Madison taught me last night? Madison from an obituary, which you should go see and my tickets to. Plug plug. They are amazing. She taught me to mix, and I think it's a Harry style song to mix, um, diet, coconut, red wine and cavernet specifically. Sounds like absolutely disgusting. Yeah. And I was like, I trust you. I took a sip, life changing. It's, it sounds fucking crazy. It's so good. I just hate diet. Anything. It doesn't end up tasting diet because the, I mean, I like diet. I was going to say I literally hate the taste of diet. Well, you could do it with regular coat. Yeah. It almost has like a sangria vibe. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. You should try it. You should try it. You should try it. You should try. Stop copying me. Oh, yeah. I got yelled at. I accidentally, because I don't look at any, like, I usually don't see any comments because I'm just like, I don't go on the internet anymore. But we go on the internet to post what we want to post. Exactly. And I'm out. I'm out. And I happened to be on Instagram and I got one of those like banner notifications. And it was somebody on a morbid post being like, Hey, is anyone else notice how fucking annoying Elena is that she just repeats it? All the funny things that Ash says in a like different voice? And I was like, they said has anyone else notice anyone else notice how annoying Elena is and I was like, why are you here? I was like, what did that get you? Sometimes I wonder if people think that's kind of like, it dear me to them. And I'm like, Oh my god. Like, I know she sucks. You're so nice for saying that. It's like, no, no, Ash fucking hates you too. I don't like to. It's okay to mean to my sister. I'm like, that doesn't work. You're fucking pots. Like, I got like whatever. It's like, pit us against each other. I'm like, do you think Ash is going to like you for that? Like Ash is good. Like we ride a dawn for each other. Like it's not like we could punch each other in the face one day. Like we never have. We never have. But we could. And then Elena could call me and be like, Hey, I need you. And I'd be like, what time? Yeah, let's go. Like I'm here actually. Who's Kyle we taken? Who's Kyle we taken? I feel like I can't say that because I've never seen that movie. That's a great movie. But is that the town? But yeah, yeah, it is the town. Hey, look at me. Yeah. So I just, you know, I just was like, wow, okay. You need to, um, you need to sign out of the morbid account on your account. I do need to because then you don't get those banner notifications. Because that was the problem. I don't go looking because of course not because whenever I do that accidentally, that's the only thing you'll see is now you'll miss all the nice things that people say. Yeah, which is sad. Yeah. And you only will see that one nasty one because they always make sure to be like, you know, does anyone notice that Elena is annoying? And I'm like, okay. Um, so sign out of that. But then you might need to also because I need to do this. You might need to unfollow morbid, which is so sad. I'm so sad that I follow morbid because like, it's my podcast. Say it. Yeah, it's my podcast. Oh, my God. You're so annoying. You're so annoying. But so I'll like scroll by and then it gives you like that little like two or three comments. I always see the meanest thing. Always. Like, why can't I speak? Yeah, that I'm like, because brain damage, okay? I don't know. Those are always the ones that show it. I'm like, wow, Instagram. I'm like, that's fake as fuck. Why do you just show me the mean line? I saw one recently that was like, wow, has a podcast, but she can't fucking talk. That was like, all right. Well, there's two of us for when I can't talk. And I just got to ask again, I know we've all asked this before. What's wrong with you? Like, who does that? Like, who does go? I know. Like, what do you get out of that? Like, that girl who was like, has anyone noticed that Elena is annoying? I'm like, even if you gathered an army of people that were like, we are the riders of Elena being annoying. And you started a group and you had meetings and like, you had like a special handshake that you did. Like, do you feel good? Like, what else, what do you get out of it? Also, why are you doing a census on my post? That's the thing. It's like, on my post. That's the way you're in the mail. I don't need to tell my post. But I was in, also that person followed me and I was like, all right. Well, hate following is a thing that people love to do. Well, it's a hate following. It's like, you love me. I was literally like, sounds like someone pretests too much. Vowduf. I don't think you find me annoying. I think you like me. I know. It's one of those things where you're like, oh my god, you shouldn't pay it any mind. Of course. But sometimes you just gotta vent it out. Which that's the thing. It's like normally, like, we've really gotten to a point years through this that we don't pay it any mind. Like, the constructive stuff, sure. But like, totally. Just people being dicks like that. Like, that's not constructive at all. Like, you can fuck yourself. Yeah, that's just me. Yeah, listen to it. That kind of shit is like, you're just, you're being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. And I don't know what you got out of it. But I sure hope it gave you some kind of jolly because I hope it doesn't. It sounds like you need it. Well, also, you're just like creating a negative space for yourself. Yeah. Like, I speak from experience. If you put things out into the world that are negative, even if you're not talking shit, like, even if you're just talking negatively, comes back to you. It's true. And then you're just attracting negative. It's karma is the thing, man. And that's why we're, and you know, it took like a while to get here. But that's why we're in a place where we're just like, you know what? Whatever. And we're also in a place of just like, we're going to keep trying to like build people up that deserve to be built up. Like, that's why we shout out different creators for you guys to go check out. And you're also because that's what we know of that. I don't even do that as much as you. Like, you're so fun. Throbbing. It's fun. And it's really fun to see when like, like, especially on TikTok, I've been seeing it lately. And it's like really making me happy. You guys like fucking kill it. Yeah. Because like morbid listeners will go follow these people that we mentioned. Right. And then they'll be like, Oh, I got, I came here for morbid. And it's so fun to see because then it's like, they are, and they're always like, Oh, I'm so excited to have found this. This is so fun. And it's like, I love like blowing those people up. You know what? That's called community. That's called community. That's called by brothers and Christ. Oh, yeah. That's what we are. That's called my brothers and brothers and brothers. You guys are the real ones. So don't think that we take like the, the, the, the, is in Elena knowing ones as like, our listeners. That's, that's not who we listen to. No, we got to talk. You guys, so yeah, exactly like you guys are the real ones. We know who you are. We know who this community is. We met a lot of you last night. It was so. It was wonderful. It was a magical. I will never not be cool. Yeah. So we know who you are. So don't worry. We will always remember you. But anyways, I just wanted to put it out there that like, you know, if you're doing that kind of shit on the internet, like you might, you, you should probably re-evaluate where you sit in life. Okay. Because that's a really pathetic thing to do. One more thing. I just have to tell you, if you're doing that, I'm literally just picturing you sitting in a crusty basement, picking your toe cheese. That's actually very true. That's exactly because I'm like, you're not happy. And I know you have a fungal infection, and I'm sorry about it, but it's not my fault the times in your life that you have talked shit like that or been somebody like that when like you're younger and like all that it was always in the worst fucking times of your life. It was never when you were happy. It was never when you were a fulfilled person. And that's why I'm just like wow that's sad. No I can honestly say. That's a bummer for you. I have never written a nasty comment. Yeah somebody else is Instagram. It's so strange. It's so strong with you. It's so strange. I've been sub tweeted many many many people in my day. I'm so fucking lootly. I'm not going on podcast being like what I mean. You're not even sub tweeted true. Well you're in our breakup stage. Any text to me and he was like did you just fucking sub tweet me and I was like I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Like I don't even know what a sub tweet is. True. Are you okay? He's like we dated for a year and a half. I know you're the sub tweet queen of the century. Like I don't know him. Like where are you? And then I'm like wait I love you Mary. Oh love. I know. What a what a wild ride. And a landscape where free and fast shipping is the norm. It could be hard for smaller e-commerce businesses to compete. But keep yourself competitive with ship station. When you use ship station you can lower shipping costs, make returns easy and keep your customers happy. And with all the time that you save from automating your shipping tasks you can actually keep your business growing all year long. I know personally how stressful running a business is. There's like a million different things to do. You're running around to a million different places but not with ship station. 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And it's got the re times the electrolytes of a traditional sports drink. It's made with premium ingredients, no GMOs, it's free from gluten, dairy and soy, and it's freaking amazing. It makes me feel just like, revitalized after I have a liquid IV. Grab your liquid IV in bulk nationwide at Costco. Or you can get 20% off when you go to liquidiv.com and use code morbid at checkout. It's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code morbid at liquidiv.com. All right. So we're in part two of the burger chef murders. This is a really sad one. It's a bummer. It's technically still unsolved, which is always a hard pill to swallow. I love it though when you say technically. Because then I get a little flutter. Yeah, because it's like, we got a pretty viable suspect. I never, I don't think I ever knew that. Yeah, there's a pretty viable one. Sorry. Did they come about recently or have they been buying it? No, it's been out there and we'll talk about them, but it's one of those things where you just can't pin it. It's like, probably because they are washed down the crime scene. Yeah. That might have something to do with it. There was that hole, hole nonsense. I didn't investigate for like a minute, for a solid minute. But what do you have a period of time? But by, so at the end of the part one, I was talking about how they really had exhausted the few leads that they got. And the state police had actually publicly stated, in this case, we've got a hope that the killer killers may have told someone who has a conscience who will come forward. So they're not even hoping now that the killer has a conscience. They're hoping that the person that the killer tells this to, they have a conscience and they come forward. Also, some killers are like pretty good at secrets. Yeah. So that's, you should probably, that tends to be like one of their, their main traits. I feel like they should explore other avenues and investigative work. You never want to hear investigators go, well, the thing we're banking on, is that this guy just straight up confesses to someone. You might be waiting a while. And not only that confesses to someone that has a conscience. It's like that's a lot. I don't want to rest all of my hopes and dreams on that. I'd rather rest it on like you investigating the case. Same. You know, but either way, that sucks. So I had mentioned it before, but in 1978, Speedway police were dealing with a lot more shit than they normally did. This super small Midwestern town was really being pushed like to the limit of its resources. We mentioned in part one that there was these random horrific bombings that were seeming and were ended up being connected to the murder of a woman. And that woman was 69-year-old housewife Julius Skiphers. She was shot to death under very mysterious circumstances. The bombings that followed were just more stress and mystery added on to this whole thing. They happened in September 1st, three bombings happened in Speedway. That Saturday, there were two more. And then another one the next day and the last one happened the following day at Speedway high school. Oh my God. So it was just constant. A bombing is like one of my biggest homes. Yeah, and they were just from now. They were being put in trash cans and stuff. And at the high school, I think they were found in a gym bag. Like somebody picked up a gym bag and it exploded. Oh my God. And people were wounded by shrapnel. It was tough. And you said they went on solves too, right? The bombings. They did for a while. So these crimes were taking up all the resources and time that this really small town PD had to offer. They were not able to muster up a lot more for anything else. And as November turned to December, state and local police were really just grasping at anything that could take the Bergerchev case forward. They just had nothing. But they were not entirely without leads. The Speedway police were continuing to receive leads from the public, from telephone calls, letters. And in the end, they actually produced at least 36 leads that they could deem at least slightly credible, which isn't a whole lot. But really the best leads that they had were the tip from that young couple who had been approached by those two men in the parking lot of the Bergerchev because they were packing. And this was because they went neck and. And this was like an hour or so before the robbery and kidnapping occurred. So this was a pretty good witness statement to have. The police department didn't have a sketch artist on chef. Rock on chef on staff. I didn't even catch that. I'm tired. I need more caffeine. But they also didn't have the funds or resources available to get a professional one. Right. So detectives found and hired Robin England, who was an art student at Ball State University. Ball State. Also was the niece of one of the investigators on the case. And they were willing to create sculpture buss from the descriptions that were provided by the witnesses. And those witnesses later said that the bus were quote between 95 and 100% accurate. Wow. Buss are always so interesting to me. These buss are very interesting looking bus. I will say. I saw that little slum, little glimmer in your head. They're very interesting looking. And a composite drawing was made from the bus. And it was circulated throughout the press. OK. Now, and again, we have the witnesses saying that these are very accurate. So that means that the composite images are pretty accurate. 95 to 100%. That's huge. Right. And they were at one point, we're going to see that they were able to find a couple of guys that literally are like dead ringers for these guys. And somehow they weren't able to place them in speedway at the time of the murders. And it like shocked me. Are they in the system? No. So photographs of these buss were circulated around the media. And a statement from state police, Sergeant Chuck Hibbert was releasing. We are not calling these two men suspects. We just want to talk to them. Which is we just want to talk to you. Literally, I was just going to say, yeah, we just want to talk. We just want to talk me. I'll hand up hands up. Yeah. Off the record. It's fine. So beside these witness statements and witness accounts, this was really the biggest evidence they had was these composite images. Lee. The detectives hope that publishing them was maybe going to jog someone's memory around that time, someone from the public that was around the burger chef had maybe cocklimbs to these guys and seeing the composite image was going to make them go, oh, shit. Yeah, I did see them. And they were hoping this person would come forward, help with an ID. However, the image is definitely prompted people to call in about 600 calls to police. Wow. None of them produced a concrete lead. Not one. Now, do you think that was because the tip sucked or do you think that was because the police department sucked? I don't know. That's the thing. The combination. Honestly, that is that's kind of the theme of this case. Everyone sucks. It's like, could it have been solved if they just did their jobs better? Yes. And it's like, yeah, I think so. I think I said it last time, or it might have been after we finished recording. If they hadn't cleaned up that crime scene, they could have dusted for prints. We obviously maybe couldn't have done a lot with them back then, but now, boom, boom, we'd have them. And it's like, at this point, we have no idea what evidence was left at that scene. Nothing. There could have been DNA at that scene. There could have been anything at that scene. There could have been hell. There could have been a photo, they could have taken a Polaroid photograph of themselves at that scene and left it on the floor of the counter. And it was thrown away. We literally don't know. There could have been a mural painted on the wall by one of them. We're going into self-intervention here. Like, it could have just, I'm just an artist. You're like, there could have been a razor scooter belonging to one of the murderers that had DNA on it and they parked it. But you know what? There could have been, I'm saying. We don't know, because they just cleaned it all up and threw it away. It could have hit one of those detectives in the angle. Yeah. And you didn't even fucking know it. Exactly. We don't know. It's frustrating thing. It's not that day like, oh, there was blood and they cleaned it up. It's like, we don't fucking know. We have no idea what evidence was at that scene that could have absolutely nailed these fuckers. And it makes me crazy. Well, if one of them had a beard, too, you're like, I know that shit was shed. I know your shit was not taken care of. It was sheddened. I know it. So as 1978 came to an end, the murders were kind of starting to fade out of the papers. That's fuck. People are starting to move on. Things happening in the case. From the brutal killing of four years in town. And when I say people, I mean, everyone but these poor victims' families who are still sitting there waiting for fucking justice. And police are just hitting wall after wall after wall. The reward money that the Bergerchev Corporation put out there, unclaimed, just sitting there. And apparently, even the typically very chatty jailhouse informants could not help push anything forward. And they were actually, there's a quote in the Indianapolis star that said, the Marion County jail, whose prisoners are usually a gold mine of information about crimes in central Indiana had not yielded a single good tip about the murder. Wow. Like that's pretty wild. Now with the public kind of fading away from this case, the headlines are fading away. Investigators are now desperate to keep it in the papers, keep the public engaged. Keep the pressure on these. They, yeah, they know they have to make up for what they've done. Right. They're negligent. So the Indianapolis star actually set up this new system. And with the system, readers could submit tips or other information anonymously, okay. Which always helps, I feel like it always gets people to talk more. And what they said was some of you may not realize you hold valuable information that just may add police in solving the crime. And it said that it said do not sign the letter, but put a five digit number at both the top and the bottom page. Then make a jagged tear across the bottom of the sheet just above the number. Okay. Just like that seems like a lot. That's very intricate. Can I just write in a lot of people are going to be intimidated by that. A lot of people are going to fuck that process. Yeah. I'm going to be honest. If I, I'd be like, oh, okay. And then I'd read like put a five digit thing. I'd be, oh, okay. And then it's starting. And then it would be like, also make this ja, and I'd be like, I'm out. Like that's the third thing you asked me to do. I'm out. You know what that reminds me of? It reminds me of the instructions for a scan tron test. Oh, that's absolutely going to make sense to everyone listening. I feel like that like to the, yeah, you get it. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Like your teacher would be like, okay, fill in this bubble with this specific pencil. Do not fill in the bubbles that are colored like this. And you were like, I have so much anxiety right now. Write your name up here. Write your name on the bottom. Write your class number here. Yes. Write your class number here. Don't you dare write your class number here. Write my name over here. And you're like, can I just take the test? Like, what's my name? What's my name though? I don't understand. So the stars were a reward desk immediately started receiving letters off of this because people were apparently non intimidated by it. Okay. We're all like, we would suck at this. But in 78, they were like, we're fine with it. I mean, yeah, you know, they had to do a lot of shit. Life is short and it's full of a lot of interesting questions. What does happiness really mean? How do I get the most out of my time here on earth? And what really is the best cereal? These are the questions I seek to resolve on my weekly podcast. Life is short with Justin Long. If you're looking for the answer to deep philosophical questions like, what is the meaning of life? I can't really help you. But I do believe that we really enrich our experience here by learning from others. And that's why in each episode, I like to talk with. Actors, musicians, artists, scientists, and many more types of people about how they get the most out of life. We explore how they felt during the highs. And sometimes more importantly, the lows of their careers. We discuss how they've been able to stay happy during some of the harder times. But if I'm being honest, it's mostly just fun chats between friends about the important stuff. Like, if you had a sandwich named after you, what would be on it? Follow life is short wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondering App. So some were like super detailed. Like one came from Johnson County from a man who said that he saw a suspicious man who bore a striking resemblance to the clean, shavin man. And this man was standing alone on stones crossing road on November 18th. That's it. All right. Just like, saw this guy that looked like that guy without a beard standing on his feet on that day over there. I saw him on that night and he was standing. And he didn't have a beard. That man was not sitting. He was standing. And I imagine that these robbers, imagine they were standing. So like, did he look so close to my friends? And like, you're just waiting for a month. Like, thanks for that. I guess like, we'll keep that in mind. That road contained a man that was standing. I contained. Yeah. So then there was other ones that were a little more detailed. One came from a Greenwood gas station attendant. He wrote in saying that he actually recognized those buss as two men who short-changed him in the early morning hours of November 18th. I have something to say. Ooh. If a gas station attendant tells you something. Listen. Yeah. Like in a criminal investigation. I feel like they know. Yeah. Just hit a criminal. Not like audits, I put. Or an urban legend, the movie, when that poor man was just trying to scream, someone's in the back seat. Oh. That man. And she was being a dick. She was being such a bitch. That's one of those situations where you're like, you had the day you deserve to grow. I wrote to tell you. Yeah. Yeah. Man is so sweet. It's so sweet. And he was just trying to tell you something. And he's a gas station attendant. Yeah, he knows. He knows. They have seen some shit. They're harbingers. They tell you when evil is a foot and you need to listen to them. Think about our friend at the gas station. He knows what the fuck. Hell yeah. He always knows what's happening. And he is all the fucking drama. Hell yeah, he does. So listen to your local gas station attendant if they're informing you about a crime. And this guy is saying that on November 18th and the early morning hours, he was short-changed by two men who looked like those buss. And of course, you're going to remember that. Yes, because he said it was strange because these men bought $12 worth of gas for their black Chevrolet. Oh, he was able to provide that. And he said, but they attempted to pay with a $5 bill in two singles. What? So they attempted to pay $7 for $12 worth of gas. I think he thought like that they would, they probably thought that he would just take the five thinking it was a 10. They could leave before he noticed. Which like, you're an asshole. The fact that you just broke that down so easily because like, because a 10 and two singles so it's like, I think they just did it to be Dick's and like, hope he wouldn't notice. But I'm like, no, he's smarter than you. Now he immediately pointed out this error. And he was like, I think you gave me the wrong bill. And they were like, Oh, okay. So they went back to their car. They got the money. But then he said they both quote, spewed obscenities at him while driving off. And it's like, okay. You stole his gas. To me, that's a pretty credible tip. Yeah. Because that's already a crime. And they seem like the kind of pieces of shit that would do something awful. Right. So maybe track down. Like if you're that big of a piece of shit, you're a piece of shit. Through and through. So the tips from the speedway police hotline and the Indianapolis Stars Award desk, they prompted hundreds of responses. But really only a handful actually produced viable leads that they could even chase down. And then when they chase down those leads, nothing, even the viable leads, they chase down nothing. So after two months of investigation, there was still not even a clear motive for this crime. Because the robbers had seemingly gone into the Bergerchev to rob the restaurant. Right. But if that was the case, why the fuck did they kidnap and murder 14s there? Like why did they do that? And it's like, we always hear the robbery gone wrong explanation for these kind of situations. This was really wrong. Like this went really wrong and not only really wrong, but they took them far away. Well, that's the thing. I feel like that's not even a typical robbery gone wrong. They're just going to like presumably shoot them and leave them there. That's the thing. That would be in that's a robbery gone wrong that they just start shooting. Right. And everybody is at the scene. Right. Very, I mean, typically robbers aren't in the habit of executing people in the middle of the woods. Like pretty rare for that to happen. So the best explanation that detectives could have come to was that something had thrown them off their plan that night. That they went in there, ready to rob that place. In some unexpected thing happened that threw the whole thing into just shenanigans. And the only difference that night that they could come to was the presence of Mark Flemmens. He had switched shifts with another employee, investigators started to theorize that Flemmens knew or could at least identify one or more of the robbers who were thrown off by his presence and killed all of them in a panic. I don't agree with that. I think they're looking at that theory from the wrong angle in my opinion. I don't think it was that Mark knew these people. I think it was that they went in there thinking there was four specific people that were going to be working, which it also was a girl who was supposed to be working in Mark's place. I wonder if they went in there saying, okay, there's three girls. There's one boy and the boy is like a 16 year old. We can take him. And then when they went in there and they saw now there's two strong like, you know, there's two like teenage boys that threw everything off. I don't think it had to do with Mark knowing who these criminals were because why would the only people that I would think he would know are like his fellow high school. That's the thing. I'm like, I don't know that. I think this is the work of two high school students. No, exactly. But even with all of that, it's still like that even if they came in there and they saw what they were not expecting to see, which is apparently an extra boy instead of an extra girl. Because that's just my random speculation. I can see that like throwing everybody off, but like to that extent, yeah, not to that exactly it, not to that extent. It's just that there's a lot of unanswered questions in that. I feel like that's a theme of this whole. Yeah, every time you think you're like, oh, well, maybe this happened, you're like, no, that doesn't make sense. But maybe this is one of those things too that it's like, it doesn't make sense. No, no, it's senseless. So like, maybe that's what it is. That was very profound. Thank you. I thought so too. That was really awesome. So by March of 1979, really the problem, you know, the territorial thing between the departments, the fragile egos, it was again, causing problems for the Bergerchev murder investigation. Yeah, man. And there was a lot of confusion among the press that was happening. On March 7, the Indianapolis News reported, quote, Speedway Police Chief Robert Copeland and all his officers were ordered by his police commissioners and state police not to talk about any aspect of the November slangs. So they're essentially saying there was a gag order put on them. Right. But then when reporters asked more about this, they were told by the state police superintendent John Settle or Shettle, excuse me, this is the first I've heard of it. We don't dictate to anyone. We try to cooperate in a case like this. What? Those are two very conflicting things. Yeah, that's opposite day, baby. And then in the same vein, a spokesperson for the governor's office said, quote, gag orders are the authority of the judicial system. Right. Which implies that unless a judge has issued that check back gag order, you're not under a gag order. So it's so wild with that. And there was no explanation for this. So it seems like Copeland's, you know, gag order, quote, unquote, really was nothing more than just an attempt to avoid questions. Like, and they didn't and not take on more scrutiny or deal with more scrutiny from the press. Basically not wanting to confront the fact that they had made zero progress in this case and that it was botched from the start. And he was like, if I just say there's a gag order, nobody can talk about it. And it won't bring any focus to the negligence that we have committed. Because that's the thing he just doesn't have answers. So I can't say anything. It's like, but you're just lying and making people believe you less. You put a gag order on himself. He did. You don't have anything to say. Don't say anything. Don't say anything at all. Is what could you say if you don't have anything to say? But then he just lied. And I was like, that's something. Like a liar. You lied right out of his face and into their faces. Fucked up, brother. But whatever. So investigators thought they actually found that had actually caught a break in April. Okay. They finally something popped. Two men were arrested in Chicago on murder charges. And they were discovered to bear a pretty uncanny resemblance to the composite sketches. So yeah, here we are. Now on April 24th, Milwaukee Police, because it was in charges were in Milwaukee. Milwaukee Police arrested Stephen Coffee and Norman Peppin. These were two criminals from Somerville, Massachusetts. I was there last night. Oh my god, they're fucking stomping grounds. There it is. So they were arrested for attempting to cash $300 in travelers checks. But those traveler checks had been stolen from travelers. Not just a random person, but one of two men killed in a quote execution style killing. Oh, yeah. The previous day they had been flagged as being dead ringers for the composite sketches. Execution style killings. Oh, yeah, it gets even crazier. So on Monday, April 23rd, they met three men. This is what happened. They met three men at a Milwaukee holiday in. They were in the city for an engineering conference. And the four of them went to a disco as you do loves it. Now on their way back to the motel, they pulled off the side of the road and they robbed these men at gunpoint. Jesus. They took them to a disco and then wrapped them and would see even wilder about this is they then quote forced them to lie down in a ditch and shot them to death. Dude, does this sound familiar? Sure does. Now miraculously, one of the men survived. Wow. And he called the police and was able to identify these two. And he even shot. Yeah. Holy cow. Now based on their resemblance to the sketches and the fact that this was very similar made them lie down, face down in a ditch before shooting them. And all that similarities to the Berger chef case, they had coffee and pep and extra dited to Indiana. They don't blame them because they were like, yeah, we got at least look at this. Yeah, talk to y'all. There they appeared before a judge and they had to wear paper bags over their heads because they couldn't jeopardize a lineup. And it would have tainted a lineup to have their faces out there. I love that crafty, crafty solution. And don't you love that visual? Yes, I do. It's so weird. It feels wrong. Now, unfortunately, apparently when they looked at the timeline of everything, police announced on May 1st that coffee and pep and more no longer people of interest in the Berger chef case. Did they give reason? I was like, the timeline didn't match up. But I'm like, okay, but like why? Like, I need you to say because they were in Chicago and this happened. Well, and that's, and it's like, yeah, the timeline didn't work. I'm like, what about it? Well, and also it's like, I don't know if I trust you with this case. I know that I don't. Yeah. I don't know about that. Yeah, girl, me either. I just don't know about that. You know, say, yeah, but by October of that year, investigators once again found themselves just completely lead bliss on this whole thing. And it seemed like the Berger chef murders were really fading out of the, the forefront here. They were fading out of the press. People weren't taking as much interest. And on October 2nd, the Metropolitan Board of Police Commissioners voted unanimously to fire police chief Robert Copeland. Oh, shit. And they voted to do this because of his lack of leadership on the bombings and the murder of Julia and then also the Berger chef murders. So all the recent crimes, all the things that he failed to lead his department about. All of his jobs. And so he was fired. And then after that, there was a bunch of dismissals or transfers of like at least a handful of other law enforcement officers that had something to do with the Berger chef case. Wow. So they got either transferred out or they were just dismissed. That's interesting that some of them got transferred out and some got dismissed. Yes, it's a very strange. I also don't know about that. I don't know about that. Now, yeah. So years are going by at this point. Tips are starting to dry up. They're coming in, but they're not really doing anything. Leads are definitely nowhere to be found. And the case is really going cold at this point. Then in December of 1984, Indianapolis star journalist Dan Luzeter. I think it's Luzator Luzator. I thought Luzator. Luzator. And I was like, I don't think Luzator. I think it is. Okay. I believe to call from an inmate, an inmate from the Marion County jail, finally their Chicham. All right. Now, this inmate was in there after being arrested for a ton of thefts. This man said that he had information about the Berger chef case. He said, it's going to be a great story. And I will happily give it to you as long as you're willing to help me out. No. And so Dan was like, yeah, I don't know how I can possibly help you because I'm a journalist. I think I'm not a judge. So like, I don't know what to tell you. But he was like, you know what? It's worth finding out at least what he has to say. So he made his way down to the Marion County jail to talk to him. Now at this point, the Berger chef murder case is six years old. And at this point, like every single detail had been told, retold in the newspapers. They've been, it been turned around. It'd been lied about. It'd been retracted. All this just been through the mud. It has through the thick of it. But it was, I guess this reporter Dan, he said that there was something about the story that he was telling that this guy was telling him that seemed truthful. Like it seemed real. Okay. And he said more importantly, the man claimed to know the identities of who was responsible for the murders. Well, so we got to hear about it. And he said one of those people has already been dismissed by investigators. Maybe that's why they were transferred. And then he said the other one was a name that he had actually heard, but that he, this reporter had never heard before, but the police definitely had. This guy's name was Donald Ray Forester. Now Donald Ray Forester's name, like I said, didn't ring a bell to Dan, but it definitely rang about with the Speedway area police. Because since he was a teen, Forester had been very familiar with law enforcement. He was a petty criminal disorderly conduct, like petty theft, reckless driving, those kind of things. What did I say in the beginning? I said, this is not their first radio. No way. There you go. But then after all these petty thefts and these little crimes, he definitely escalated to a violent crime in 1977. So right before the Berger, Berger Chef murders, he was arrested for quote assault and battery with the intent to gratify sexual desires, which is a mighty escalation. Yeah, that is. Now Forester had actually been out on parole when the Berger Chef murders were committed, and he was arrested again for rape in April of 1979. Wow. So was there? Was there? This goes in line. Were the two female victims checked to see if they had like any signs that they had been, it didn't seem like they had been, nothing that I read suggested that they were. Okay. But he had been sentenced to 95 years in prison. Wow. So, so Dan Luzeter, he went on like a research deep dive on the Berger Chef murders and on Donald Ray Forester because he was like, I got to try to make a connection here. And then he finally contacted Forester who was actually serving out his sentence at Pendleton Reformatory. So, they finally, he finally got him to agree to meet with him and the meeting was June 24, 1985. Now, at that point Forester had already been questioned by investigators about the Berger Chef murders, he had failed to polygraph tests. And but he was saying that he knew nothing about the case, nothing about the crime. It's so funny because when somebody I'm rooting for fails a polygraph, I'm like, it means it may not do a trench coat. And then when somebody I'm like, I don't know about you, I felt like they did it. He like, yep, that was it. I know it's so true. But so this reporter though was like, because he again, he's saying he knew nothing about the case, this reporter is not going to give up hope though because he's like, there's some connections here. The timing is making sense. He was out on parole during that time. He had just escalated to a lot of violence. Yeah. And he committed another act of violence after. Yeah, it's not like his name was just pulled out of the air. You know, but when he's going to meet with him, he's like, I have to be realistic about this. He might not give me anything. So when he went, he asked Forester, he said, did you commit the murders? And Forester said, I did not. But then lose it or begin just like, Dan, he began like pondering aloud. He's like, you know, I just wonder why? Why did these murders occur? Smartly, you know? And I guess Forester, who was not asked directly this, just gave an answer and said it was drugs, drugs and homosexuality. What? Yep. And he went on to say he was innocent. But he said he did know who committed the murders. And he said, I'll give you that information. If you get me a new trial for the rape charges that I'm in here for. Dan is like, one more time for the people in the back. I'm a fucking journalist. I can't give you a new trial, dude. I can write you a bomb ass. Sorry. Yeah. But I'm pretty much all I got. That's all I got, man. Maybe I could put a good word in with my editor. Like, I don't know. It's just like, are you kidding me? So, but over the next few weeks, Dan lose it or spent hours and hours and days. And days just investigating Forester. And eventually he got to interview Forester's ex-wife. Oh, shit. The plot. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, his ex-wife, she told lose it or, and she told lose it or that you need to bring detectives to this house. Okay. So, he did. He brought detectives and she led them to shell casings that were hidden in the couple's septic tank that matched the ones found in the Berger ship murders. I don't even know where my septic tank is, but they do. How are you like, yeah, what? Yep. Why? So then, does that mean that they weren't flushing their septic tank? I have no idea how that works. You're like, don't ask those questions. I have no idea. You're like, what's a subtle one? I'm like, I don't know what they were doing. But what the fuck? The loser that brought this information to Forester and was like, hey, yeah. Do you want to say anything about that? And he was like, oh, no, I'm still innocent. But then he kept, he was like, coily giving pieces of information that you were like, why would you know that? How do you know that? But he kept saying he wanted something in return. And Dan again is like, I have nothing to do. So detectives were called in here to talk to him and detectives spent weeks with him. They drove him to locations around where that they thought might be connected to the murders. They brought him to a hypnotist in Akron, Ohio, but he would not admit to doing it. And he said he'd never been there. He had nothing to do with it. Investigators were so frustrated at this point. But eventually he did provide the names of two men that he claimed were the killers. But detectives interviewed these two men and they immediately knew he was lying. And also like, oh, you just took the shell casings for them? Yeah, exactly. Is that fucking stuff to take all these years? Well, they, they were like, as soon as they sat down and started talking to them, they had the two men. They were like, no, no, like this is a lie. Right. So by November of 1986, now nearly eight years after the Berger Sheff murders occurred, detectives were just done. They were like, Dan, for our Donald Forester is not going to do the right thing. He's not going to confess. Of course not. We just have to try to get some evidence to like force it. And then they were stunned because they received a call that year saying that Donald Forester wanted to chat with them. So no one understands why or what led this to happen. But Donald Forester sat down with these detectives on November 10, 1986 and he gave a detailed confession of the murders. So what do you mean that this is unsolved? So in these were things, details that only someone who was there that night could have known. Like he described the positions of the bodies, the wounds they suffered. One of the things he said was that Daniel Davis had been shot in the cheek and that had never been released to the public. So why didn't did he get a message? And that's a pretty spit. Well, he's in jail for 95 years. Oh, right. So yeah. But did he have to like, well, he also told investigators that that the gun that was used, they threw in the white river, which makes sense that they never found the gun as a big old river. And he also confessed that it was here. It was him who had shot Ruth Shelton and Daniel Davis. Oh my God. He admitted to the two, which also makes sense because Jane and Mark were the ones that were found further away. So not only did he confess, but he's confessing correctly saying, I'm the one who shot the two that were found on the ground. Holy shit. Yeah. It's like this guy did it. And did he say who he did it? Whether he wouldn't give them the name. Now, so according to him, the murders quote resulted from an effort to collect a large debt over a cocaine deal that involved one of the victims and the crimes had been committed by multiple people, obviously. Now this was not seeming to be the real story because if we look at the four people like the four victims, it doesn't add up. Everybody was like, I don't know about that. But in 1981, Jane Freetz brother James was arrested on cocaine charges. Oh, so you think maybe they went there to like fuck with his sister to like intimidate him. And he actually said at the time of his arrest that he suggested that James murder could have been connected to his arrest. Cocaine shit. Oh no. It doesn't look like the investigators followed up on it at the time though in 81. What the fuck were they doing? It was in 81. Right. Like only a few years after a couple of years after the murders that that he was arrested James brother. And at that time, he said to investigators, guys, I think this might be the reason that my sister was killed and they didn't follow up on it. And now this guy is sitting here saying that it's a cocaine deal. And is there any notes or anything like a do to do do to do. But that's like wild that they just didn't follow like yeah, I cannot imagine a more poorly fucking handled case than this. No, all the way through seriously because it's like it's also once you look at the scene you're like, yeah, that actually makes perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You're like, okay, now I see that's why they didn't take the ring. That's why they didn't take the cash. They got the money out of the thing. They got what they wanted and then they got to that and that's what it makes sense. That's brutal. Yeah. Now based on this whole thing, police now connected the murders to the huge drug ring that had been operating in speedway at the time. Okay. It was run by a guy that Forester actually implicated as the individual who planned the whole thing in the first place. Yeah, because he was running it. So he wanted his money. Exactly. Now in exchange for the information, Forester was granted immunity from prosecution for this. He was already for 95 years. But he was only going to be granted that if he hadn't committed the murders, which he already confessed to. Okay. So they kind of like played a little game. Yeah. And two weeks, but this kind of backfire because two weeks later, he recanted. And he said that he had been coerced to confess by police and that they threatened to, you know, they threatened all this stuff and that he was when he was sent back to prison, he was going to be labeled an informant and like that was going to get him killed. So that was him getting scared that he confessed. Right. And then he told all the shit about a huge drug ring. Yeah. And then when he went back in that they were going to like clearly make him pay for it. Exactly. So now that confession is recanted and investigators are looking for anything that can tie physically Forester to these murders. I mean, that confession is great because he gave the details that only someone there could know. But they have nothing physical. And then it's like if he's saying it's he was coerced into that, it's their word against it because then he can say, well, they gave me those details. Exactly. But so they're trying to come up with anything and they came across a charge from 1969 where Forester was actually arrested for sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl. Wow. He's a piece of actual human garbage. Yep. In a wooded area off stones crossing road, which was about a mile and a half from where the Berger Sheff murders occurred. Wow. Now, for some reason, he was never sentenced for sexual assault. Oh, good. But it kind of proved that one, he's a piece shit and two that he's familiar with the area that they were found. Now, unfortunately, district attorney Stephen Goldsmith didn't think this was sufficient to prove his guilt, which I can kind of see if I was on a jury. Yeah. I don't know if that was just not enough. That's the thing. Now, his confession and then the recanting of that put the district attorney in a really bad position. There's one hand that's like the D, like I said, the details. It's a near certainty that he is one of the killers, absolutely. A near certainty. But on the other hand, this story had unraveled and been told and retold and fucked around so many times that it was now really difficult to tell what was true and what was wise and what was manipulated and what wasn't. But the fact that he knew the details of like one of them being shot in the cheek with that they've never been released. And they all believed like he 100% is one of the killers. Like that is it, but it just makes proving it a totally uphill battle. And the biggest problem that the district attorney faced was that so many people had been involved in the investigation and had contact with Forester. And all of them had received varying versions of the story and none could send a settle on just one version of the story. Yeah. So it was like no one could even settle on like this is the narrative. And then what makes everything worse is that the territorial stuff and the ego stuff had completely plagued everything about this case over the years had led to so many miscommunications, inter-evidence, missing evidence, there was going to be a mistrial if they brought this 100 100 100% it was such a tainted investigation from the beginning. Fucked from the start exactly. It was now in December 20th, 1986, DA Goldsmith called a meeting with investigators from all the agencies involved in this case together. They combed over Forester statement. There was 1200 pages, 1200 all the statements that he had made holy can only. And after reviewing everything, Goldsmith held a press conference and he made an announcement. He said after careful consideration of this entire thing, he would not be pursuing charges against Donald Ray Forrest, sir for the Berger Sheff murders. So bad for those families. They must have had hope for the first time in like so many years and then just have that ripped away from you. And he said that it like killed him to do it. To not do it, but he said too many years have gone by too many mistakes have been made in this case. And I don't know if we're going to be able to solve it. No. Well, the thing is like legally solve it. Exactly. I think everybody kind of knows what happens at this point. And it's like that's horrible for the family that they had that hope, but at the same time, I'm glad that he realized that they didn't have enough because if all those families had to go through trials, exactly, opening all of that and then to have an end in a mistrial or not guilty, fuck that. Exactly. That's the thing because it's like if they had gone through with it, it just would have tainted it further. Exactly. So it's like I understand why he was like, it's really not worth it to do this. Oh, it's such a bummer though. I know it bummed me out so much. It's like, no, he didn't. Now in 2003, oh, shit, 25 years after the murders, Rachel and John Shelton, who are the parents of Ruth Shelton, they gave an interview about the still unsolved Berger Chef murders. And they said, at first, I was convinced that it would be solved. That's what her mother said. And she said, I guess we sure don't hold our breath about it. It was a very long time ago, which is like so sad because that's just like, like just throwing our hands up. Like no one's going to do it. Now they had both hoped the killer would have been caught, but then when detectives told them that they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute the suspects, John Shelton said to be honest, I don't even want to know their names. I like he was like, I don't know if I don't know for sure, then I don't want to harbor hatred and resent toward one person that murder could not have done it. So it's like forget it. I don't want to deal with it. It's so half-ass at that. I know. I know. I mean, like fuck off. Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. I mean, I don't want to be a victim of murder case is open, but inactive. It's so hard because it's like now there's no evidence to look at. And all the evidence that they do have all the notes, all the statements and everything, it has it's in a five-door file cabinet and six and a half-foot wall locker that's at state police district 52 office just sitting there, just not being touched. It's been years since they've pursued any leads. And most of the original investigators are actually all of the original investigators on the case have either retired or died. And the Bergerchef restaurant chain was actually sold to CKE restaurant holdings in 1982, and it is now Hardee's restaurant, which I didn't know. I don't know, but have I heard of Hardee's? Hardee's, it's like Berger's, I think. Oh, okay. Yeah. And today, the old Bergerchef restaurant on Crawford's Velrodin Speedway sits empty. Oh, that's chilling. Really, yeah. But then at the same time, it's like, what would you want to see go up there? I know. Other than a memorial. No, it's true, like something. No, it's true, like something. I know it should be like a park. Yeah, I feel like. Yeah. But in the end, we're just left with this, nothing, this frustrating void of information that we know if more investigatory, like due diligence was done from the get-go and people didn't walk into this thing with a preconceived narrative in their head, and they had actually taken even one fucking photo of that scene that this all could be different. Is mind boggling? But now we're sitting here and they're trying to solve this case that was just completely erased from the beginning. They erased it right from the beginning. Literally, they magic erased it away. Yeah. And then they're trying to like, you know, right from the get-go, they're all sitting there being like, well, I think these kids just, you know, they decided that night to just steal all the money out of the safe and then took off together. Like that was their first theory and it's like with no prior past of any kind of fucking with no criminal past. Like it's just like, okay, I see you. I see you. And then later they theorized that it must be Mark, the only black employee that was taken out of that restaurant that day who knew the killers and that he was the reason that they were all killed. Like with what fucking evidence, you have no evidence to back that up. You're racist. Like we're just going to go with Mark being the problem here. I don't think any of them were the problem here. No, I think they were all victims. And I think I do think that if Jane's own brother suggested that his cocaine stuff could have been to do with it, like his sister's murder, I think we should listen to them. Right. They're telling some follow-up questions on that. He's not bullshitting. It's not like her brother is being like, oh no, he's actively saying like probably out of guilt, like probably out of anger and sadness and grief, like this could have had something to do with it, like investigate it. And they were like, why wouldn't you say that other than to be like, please, like investigate this. He's not going to implicate himself even further. No, he brought it like that is that's a fucking brother. Yeah, absolutely. Like regardless of what he was doing in his personal life or any like the cocaine stuff, it's like that he was being a brother. Yeah. Like he was being a brother and being like, I'm going to put myself out on a limb here. And I want you to investigate this because I think it could have something to do with it. And they just ignored him. And then you have Donald Ray Forrester sitting there giving that exact same story and saying it is because of cocaine, right? And a debt that would need to be paid. And it's like, that seems to me to line up. Wow. Yeah. And it's a very frustrating case. And also if that is, if that is the case with the whole cocaine charge, it's like, why did you, like you didn't need to involve his sister in the Bergerchev restaurant? No, it's like fucked up. Deal with it directly. No, it's really fucked up. That's, but it's scary what money will do to people and drugs. Yeah. Money and drugs mixed together. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a bad, bad combination. Oh, God. It's so scary. Drug rings, I think are one of the scariest fucking things on the planet because it's truly ruthless. Yeah, that's why I'm just like, okay. Bye bye. Yeah, when that being said, we hope you keep listening. We hope you keep it weird. But it's so weird that you ran a drug ring because we're scared. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, prime members. You can listen to morbid, early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.